Best match at Team State?

[smwwrest]

A great thing about Ghouse is the above response probably took him 10-20 minutes to research and write! He's in a league of his own.

[Dragon Fly]

Too much power in the west this year guys. CBHS and The "Great G-House". What can I say.

[mocs2011]

I think we're coming down a little hard on rlwest. I can sympathize, sometimes when your wrestlers are getting pummelled, its hard to differentiate between a good Florida wrestler and someone nationally ranked.

[rlwest40]

Very in-depth response ghouse but we will just agree to disagree.. You can do all the research you want to on your computer but like I said I've been to both tournaments and I was just basing my opinion on what I've seen in the gym and on the mat and I think both tournaments are comparable and my other post was just giving a current head to head projection based on the latest results. Didn't mean to upset you guys from West TN.

 

mocs2011: I'm not sure who you're referring to getting pummelled when Cleveland won the toughest tournament in Florida and placed 2nd by 5.5 points to nationally ranked team at GP West. Do you care to explain yourself?

[goblue1]

Blansit from Cleveland will beat whomever Wilson Central puts in that weight class. Caleb Berta or Lane Dickeson.

I don't know about that. Dickson is pretty solid. He was beating lee by a major before pinning him while blandsit beat lee 7-3 this weekend. and in looking at comparable wrestlers I think lane would dec him

[HSDAD]

I don't know about that. Dickson is pretty solid. He was beating lee by a major before pinning him while blandsit beat lee 7-3 this weekend. and in looking at comparable wrestlers I think lane would dec him

 

Maybe WC will have the opportunity to wrestle Cleveland during Team state.

After watching the Clev./BC match, Cleveland looks like they are on a different

level?

[Sommers]

Mr. Ghouse-sba,

 

I heard wrestling god is now willing to give up his handle now.

 

Seriously... Solid comparisons especially on the # of ranked wrestlers in one of those hot beds of hs wrestling.

 

Now, your next assignment,,,, how does these events compare to beast of the East, and Walsh iron man, apple valley's and super 32?? (summary only please)

 

Finally, last year in GA... when legrand worked out pre season with CH, Archer, Valdosta (fords), Pope and some others down there, he found the lower weights, 120-126, similar to TN, esp considering the mighty Tate R of TN. I tended to agree judging from several workouts with drew Ferguson, (btw when was the name Mitchell added??? tj's family? ) + the Ford twins which "seemed" to be right up there with Tate, or even your Oliver. Aside from Millhof, the Russells, + others ie upper weight Asker, could tn be somewhat close in several weights - - top two anyway- cause GA appears to be deeper all together.

 

Your thoughts master?

[WrestlingGod]

Mr. Ghouse-sba,

 

I heard wrestling god is now willing to give up his handle now.

 

For the right price

[rlwest40]

ghouse:

 

For the record, if you wanna stick strictly to the facts then do a little bit more research in the future because what you claim as facts in your rebuttal is false, namely that the Osceola tournament had only 2 nationally ranked wrestlers compared to 14 or whatever you said it was in Kansas City. I didn't know this would turn into a debate when I said that both tournaments were very comparable based on what I've seen at the tournaments but since you felt the need to research the 'facts' to make an arguement then let me provide some facts that you left out somehow while belittling the Osceola tournament. They're both great tournaments as I said originally, and IMO I believe as a whole they are both very comparable in strength and depth. Agree or disagree, we don't need a full deposition.

 

Kissimmi – Osceola Tournament Nationally Ranked Wrestlers (based on current USA rankings)

1. #1 Baldwin (KO)
   
2. #8 J. Prince (PH)
   
3. #8 Hartman (PH)
   
4. #9 Shipley (LHP)
   
5. #9 Ross (SP)
   
6. #10 Grimes (HI)
   
7. #18 Ramirez (SD)
   
8. #20 Spengler (LHP)
   
9. #21 Dominguez (KO)
   
10. #21 Herrera (SP)
    
11. #24 Hall (STA)
    
12. #26 West (CLV)
    
13. #28 C. Prince (PH)
    
14. #29 Pagan (KO)
    
15. HM Petrone (LHP)
    

...and to repley to an another post, the Beast, Ironman, and Super 32 are at a different level than EITHER of these tournaments.

[ghouse]

Mr. Ghouse-sba,

 

I heard wrestling god is now willing to give up his handle now.

 

Seriously... Solid comparisons especially on the # of ranked wrestlers in one of those hot beds of hs wrestling.

 

Now, your next assignment,,,, how does these events compare to beast of the East, and Walsh iron man, apple valley's and super 32?? (summary only please)

 

Finally, last year in GA... when legrand worked out pre season with CH, Archer, Valdosta (fords), Pope and some others down there, he found the lower weights, 120-126, similar to TN, esp considering the mighty Tate R of TN. I tended to agree judging from several workouts with drew Ferguson, (btw when was the name Mitchell added??? tj's family? ) + the Ford twins which "seemed" to be right up there with Tate, or even your Oliver. Aside from Millhof, the Russells, + others ie upper weight Asker, could tn be somewhat close in several weights - - top two anyway- cause GA appears to be deeper all together.

 

Your thoughts master?

 

Soms,

 

If you really want to get into the overall strength of national level tournaments I would recommend taking a peak at the article written by Josh Lowe over at Intermat back in July this year (link below but it is subscription required, premium content... well worth it in my opinion). Those guys get paid to do those analyses and are more knowledgeable than I am.

 

http://intermatwrestle.com/articles/10431

 

I think his assessment of the events is fairly solid.

 

He slots the KC event in at #8 on his list. His top 5 are as follows:

5) Cheesehead (I assume this is what you meant by Apple Valley's but they are not the host)

4) POWERade

3) The Clash

2) Best of the East

1) Ironman

 

Interesting note that neither FL event being discussed made the HM list...

 

Now, on the topic of GA wrestling and TN yes the top 1-2 are usually relatively comparable but GA has much more depth than TN. GA is benefiting from the hard work of a lot of people that set-up a relatively cohesive youth system across the state. Then you have another small group really pushing their top kids to get out and see the best national level competition. Those two things are resulting in solid depth and a good top end. That is the main reason why GA is currently recognized as one of the top up and coming wrestling states around the nation.

 

TN will continue to struggle (but still improve) until there is a single, cohesive youth / middle school organization. The AAU is doing their best but there are still far too many different sub-leagues.

[Sommers]

Thx sir Ghouse, How would your Oliver match up with Millhof & the Russells... close I would assume?

 

Also on super 32– could we do better? There are more from the NE & I mid west than the SE it a ears?!?! I was pleased to hear recently, union County had Brock Ervin go to iron man and lose his first in a while against the 1 # ranked 126 in nation.... BY ONLY ONE POINT.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Sommers

[ghouse]

ghouse:

 

For the record, if you wanna stick strictly to the facts then do a little bit more research in the future because what you claim as facts in your rebuttal is false, namely that the Osceola tournament had only 2 nationally ranked wrestlers compared to 14 or whatever you said it was in Kansas City. I didn't know this would turn into a debate when I said that both tournaments were very comparable based on what I've seen at the tournaments but since you felt the need to research the 'facts' to make an arguement then let me provide some facts that you left out somehow while belittling the Osceola tournament. They're both great tournaments as I said originally, and IMO I believe as a whole they are both very comparable in strength and depth. Agree or disagree, we don't need a full deposition.

 

Kissimmi – Osceola Tournament Nationally Ranked Wrestlers (based on current USA rankings)

1. #1 Baldwin (KO)
   
2. #8 J. Prince (PH)
   
3. #8 Hartman (PH)
   
4. #9 Shipley (LHP)
   
5. #9 Ross (SP)
   
6. #10 Grimes (HI)
   
7. #18 Ramirez (SD)
   
8. #20 Spengler (LHP)
   
9. #21 Dominguez (KO)
   
10. #21 Herrera (SP)
    
11. #24 Hall (STA)
    
12. #26 West (CLV)
    
13. #28 C. Prince (PH)
    
14. #29 Pagan (KO)
    
15. HM Petrone (LHP)
    

...and to repley to an another post, the Beast, Ironman, and Super 32 are at a different level than EITHER of these tournaments.

 

Mr. West,

 

There was nothing at all false in my statement regarding national rankings. There are many places you can pull national rankings from and I specified exactly where mine came from (the current Intermat rankings). No misstatement of fact there but I am glad you still have desire to check me... I love a good debate or conversation most any time.

 

The wonderful thing about opinions is that everyone gets to have one and they can all be different. The more interesting one are those that are backed-up by some level of fact or analysis and you have at least brought something to the table this time.

 

However, we aren't exactly using an apples to apples comparison here. You have pulled the Wrestling USA grade level / class rankings for your support. The rankings you listed are not what many would consider a national ranking in that they are broken apart by grade level as opposed to looking at all classes overall. This of course gives more recognition to the kids (especially when you go 30 deep at each grade level: senior, junior, & combined frosh / soph) and may be a better evaluation from a recruiting perspective but not really apples to apples .. much closer to apples and potatoes. Typically if someone says national rankings to me or those I discuss these types of things with it is understood that we are discussing the top 20 all class rankings. The rankings you posted are usually referred to as grade level, recruiting or some other descriptive term.

 

To be honest I find the Wrestling USA rankings to be the least relevant of the bunch, aside from the USA Wrestling Future Olympian rankings, but in the end it is ultimately a positive for the sport as it is another chance for exposure. I don't find them as relevant for two reasons 1) frequency of update and 2) research or detail. Their rankings are only updated 2x per year for each ranking for publication in the magazine. Secondly, I just don't find them as accurate or relevant in their ranking process as the two major players in the game (intermat and flowrestling) but that could be a factor of their evaluation criteria and is just my opinion anyway. In my opinion (there is that darn hard to prove thing again) Intermat and FloWrestling do a far better job researching, updating, and being consistent with their rankings... that is probably one of the reasons they are the two major forces in wrestling media today with AWN expected to make a strong surge again after hiring Jason Bryant away from USAW.

 

However, if you would like to use those I would be glad to do so.... I did a brief skim (I could have missed some) of the Wrestling USA rankings for the first 4 weights at KC and came away 21 ranked individuals and 1 special mention. That is only using the first 4 weights (106-120) and there are already ~50% more ranked wrestlers in KC's first 4 weights than the entirety of the tournament in FL. One weight class in KC alone, 113, held 9 ranked wrestlers per Wrestling USA and 1 special mention. That 10 is 2/3 of the total for the FL tournament. I am pretty confident we would see the same trend if I continued through the weights (especially considering that 145 was probably KC's deepest weight and I haven't even touched it yet) in KC but I just don't have the time to dedicate to it right now.

 

So, all of that said, it would appear that using the criteria you set forth that the tournament in KC is still tougher (or a different level in your earlier words) than the one in FL. I will state again that the FL event is a very good tournament... just not national caliber. When comparing tournaments any event may be tougher at a given weight class and the rankers usually have to really judge any major tournament win or placing based on who was their as opposed to strict placement.

 

We can go round and round on this as we will both have our opinions so I am not sure either of us will convince the other and we are all allowed our opinions, but I am game because I enjoy a good debate. If you have any other objective means that you believe backs up your opinion please feel free to present.