State wrestling talent spread to thin.

[Khromax]

I wanted to put a few things out there before we ride off in to the sunset.

In my opinion we are hurting our sport splitting into all these divisions. Something that i always wanted to see was my sons wrestle in the matches that our fans wanted to see. Our state doesnt have the wrestling population to support 3 divisons with quality wrestling throughout. We are hardpressed to get our best kids into the big matches with two.......now 3. A couple of years ago a coach, Ward Gossett and I were talking outside the cowpalace about what may be coming with regards to a small school split. I told them both that wrestling is our most purest sport, it requires shoes and a mat. If you want to be good, work harder than your opponent. I know that there are more varibles but broken to its simplest form....thats all you need. When i dropped Blaike off last week to ride up to the state tournament, i was standing in the round gym watching about 30 or more little kids just going to town on each other. I grabbed John Lane by the neck, i was tearing up and i said John, I hope your telling them that this is were it all begins. Ive watched Blaike go from tapeing his shot foot at 4 years old to what we saw the other night, im sure Rob has done all the little things to get Ethan to where hes at, and we saw the best 2 182 pound kids in the state go toe to toe, the sport cant help when upsets happen and the two that people think are best dont match up.....beauty of our sport as well. Last year Cody Davis was the best 195 in state, small school. and we can go on,and on and on. We are about to water our sport down in hope of building it up......really, really. Wrestling is the greatest sport on earth, to be one of the best you need to find a kids club and buy your child a pair of shoes and support their dreams. I want our wrestling to grow in state but guys this is not a school size problem. Our problem is not having enough coaches with the vision and dedication that Steve Henry took to Soddy Daisy 30 years ago to build a network of support that fed his program.

[CoachJones]

So.. once again im no enlish major.. typo's are expected lol.. happy reading...sorry in advance for the babbling.

 

 

Im not going into all the details.. but that is not the 100% Truth. I grew up in VA.... We have had 3 states, plus Private Schools for many many years. I would still pair up some of the A schools verse the AAA schools in VA and you get good match ups. Next year they (heard through the grape vine) are going to 6 state wrestling divisions in VA. ....

Looking at this division, If we step up as coaches and do our job we will build up this sport. Pigeon Forge and few small schools are the rarity. So overall, I think the split is going to build up the overall population

 

Think about this.. You speak of the Youth teams at Soddy. They have for many years seen some great wrestlers come out of their room! Same with Cleveland Now!

Step back.. now you give a small team that starts producing at a high level, all be it that it is small school state.. a state champion is a state champion. That young kid or kids in the youth program for that small school are now seeing and hearing about CHAMPIONS.. from their high school program. What wonders that can do for that youth to say I got to high five that stamp champ during my youth practice!!

Im not a great computer debater (lol) an I highly doubt i will repost all the points that many will point out.. Im just saying... If we do our part as an ambassdor to the sport of wrestling we can build this up to be great!!! With all things, It takes time and dedication.

 

Lastly, the point of one true champion etc has been made many times over.. In VA, 1999 was the first year we introduced the A-AA vs. AAA duals... they would take the State Champ from each weight class and invite them to participate.. and if they declined you went down the line 2, 3, 4th, etc to try and match up the best vs. best and make a great event out of it.... It has grown over the years and been a great sucess.. It also allows college coaches to come and scout these kids that maybe were the surprise at state and placed or stepped up and won state! Just saying, something of a showcase would be great...

 

Either way you look at it.... "THE CREAM WILL ALWAYS RISE TO THE TOP"... good luck with the great debate. Hope TN wrestling steps up, embraces the changes and we build.

[Khromax]

Coach, all your points sound fine in theory. These same schools have had an oppurtunity to build a kids club, build a middle school program, and proceed to the highschool to reap the benefits of that infrastucture. As you said" it takes time and dedication", it seems that we are wanting to bypass that step throw some gold around by lowering the competition and then we have Quantity. When i was younger before having kids, friends and i would go the the state tournament and outside of upsets you were pretty sure to see the 2 best wrestlers our state had to offer. Im talking from a wrestling and overall population standpoint where are we going to get the wrestlers to ensure some decent competition. Maybe the quality doesnt matter anymore, im not saying your wrong. Id rather say...Hey, im taking my kid to Coach Jones for wrestling instruction. I like his work ethic and enthusiasm, my kid can be one of the best working with him.

Im not taking my kid to a program because they dont wrestle good competition and they still get a medal. If im spending my money and my time for my child to be good, i want him to wrestle against the best kids, against the best teams because i want him to be tested. Not given a medal. I hope your right, but alot of these Coaches voted for it because its gonna lower the competition level from a small school perspective, its a win at all costs society. Im not looking to argue, i did that with Coach Henry over this topic last summer....LOL

[SAC]

Iowa and Pennsylvania are the proverbial wrestling hotbeds… Both have multi-division tournaments.

[Khromax]

Iowa and Pennsylvania are the proverbial wrestling hotbeds… Both have multi-division tournaments.

Traditional wrestling states.....up there its a way of life, it means something to them. Soddy, Bradley, Cleveland, CBHS, Baylor, we all know the schools that wrestling means something too. I was talking too a family from Michigan one year at a national tournament...their kid had already wrstled in 200 matches, and thats what he had averaged for a couple of years. I tried to enter every chattanooga league tournament, FCI, USA any i could get blaike in one year. 68 matches is the best i could do, they have so many more kids wrestling than we do. . Wrestling has to be important to the people of Tennessee to get them to get their kids to wrestle. Its a tradition handed down in Chattanooga, i think it came from the league we had growing up. Most people included wrestling season right up there with football and baseball. You can do better than name dropping traditional power states in wrestling to ours....please

[shoestring]

You are exactly right Khromax but the world is all about me, me me. Wrestling was one of last venues for young men to test their fortitude and be warriors . The coaches that vote dont care about whats best for the sport in our state. They care about whats best for their win loss record. Everyone can spout off all the stats they want about other states but the fact of the matter is we arent Iowa, Pennsylvania, Ohio, or even Georgia for that matter. There arent enough wrestling programs that are serious about the sport to split the divisions. Like Khromax said, they have had the opportunity for years and have done NOTHING with it. We have had a small school state duals for over 20 years now. Why hasnt this fostered this new growth everyone wants ? All this will do is give schools more of a reason not to wrestle the larger schools like they dont wrestle the private schools now. There are some schools in Chattanooga that are supposed to be good and used to be state powers that wrestle NOBODY and then they wonder why they get beat in the state individuals every year. Well, guess what, it will only get worse. Do you think the Hixsons, Centrals, East Ridges, East Hamiltons , Notre Dames of the world will wrestle Soddy, Cleveland, Bradley, Walker Valley Baylor, or McCallie right in their own hometown? Some of the best teams in the state within a 15-25 minute drive and they will never face them so they can protect some win loss record. Is that fair to your kids? Is that making them better wrestlers? Has that prepared them for the state tournaments? Also you will have to travel great distances now to find matches because the small schools will have an exscuse not to wrestle you anymore. We arent teaching our kids to work harder, never give up, be tough anymore. We are teaching them to pick and chose your battles to only those you can win. Ive got a feeling that wont be the case their whole life and they will be missing out on some valuable life lessons. There are many answers to the problem but the coaches dont want to hear them. The simplest thing is to wrestle the whole tournament together and just award separate team championships for each division. Everybody is happy that way and the sport doesnt suffer. The Chattanooga schools are dropping off big time other than Soddy and the Bradley County schools. The rest of the state is getting better and better because they see the big picture and are doing what Chattanooga did 20-30 years ago with their feeders and middle school wrestling. Look at Wilson Central, Beech, Ravenswood, Blackman, Pigeon Forge, ect.. They are outworking everyone else and have passed the Chattanooga schools. A prime example is the Hcac middle school league in Chattanooga which is part of the the stupid Tmssaa middle school league. While our kids get 12-14 matches a year theirs get 50. While our kids cant wrestle outside their league theirs are wrestling all across the state and in national tournaments. The middle school coaches love it because they get a little 5 week season , wrestle a few matches and two tournaments and get their stipend. Meanwhile the rest of the state is passing you by. Basically what the coaches have said is, we cant beat you, we cant outwork you, we dont want to devote as much time as you do so we will just start our own division. Word it however you want, sugarcoat it, compare us to other states and so on but thats the bottom line. Small school duals has not grown our state wrestling and this wont either.

[shoestring]

This is equivalent to moving the tournament to the cow palace. Everyone with a brain knows it doesnt compare in terms of excitement. Its the state tournament, it should be the pinnacle of these wrestlers high school careers and we are wrestling on dirt floors with leaking roofs and 50 degree temperatures where nobody can see all the mats at once? Im not going to go over all the merits of the different venues but everyone knows this isnt the best and most exciting place for the tournament. Its just another example of how we chose to take the easy way out instead of rolling up our sleeves and going to work to fix things or make them better. Kind of like wrestling losing out on the olympics. We need to remember what this sport is all about and what separates wrestling from all other sports and athletes. We have always prided ourselves on being the toughest, the meanest, the hardest working, the most resilient. Wrestling produces people who can overcome any obstacle and accomplish great things. I guess we have kind of lost track of those values like the rest of society has.

[Hamblin]

Please allow me to add a different look at this subject. Growing up in Michigan we were exposed to a 4 class system. Michigan was a 2 class system as far back as the state keeps records, (1961). In 1967 they created a 3rd class. In 1974 they split again and created a 4 class system, A,B,C, and D. Now it is called Division 1,2,3, and 4. Michigan had to start somewhere just as Tennessee has. In some ways Tennessee is seeing the same type of growth as Michigan, maybe a little slower, yet growth just the same. What are we seeking for Tennessee? Do we want to eventually be called a "PowerHouse" or maybe a "Traditional Hot Bed?" We have to start somewhere. When I graduated in 1982 we had very little to do post-season. USA Kids had a few tournaments here and there, but we had to travel far to get to them. AAU started coming on and eventually MYWA was started. Now they have 5 different sanctioning entities. They didnt start at 6 dividions and reduce to 4.

Here is another perspective. School A has 1500 students, while school B has 400. Who has a greater pool to pull from? More programs start up every year. The sport keeps growing. Look for yourself.

Now another look at Michigan. Every school has the option to schedule who they want beyond the teams they need to seed against at Team State. Kids from every division go on to college and wrestle. Go to michigangrappler.com or the MHSAA and look up the names. You will see this to be true. My brother won 6 team titles (Division 3) 2000-2012 coaching against the toughest D1 and D2 schools he could schedule. Youth programs are popping up everywhere there as well as here. Give the sport some room to grow. If the plan fails you can say "I told you so." If it succedes we can all join in that growth together. Michigan has grown every year because it is not being held back. Think of it this way, If you have 14 State Champs every year, how many will go to college? How many kids will miss out because they just missed placing in the big one but could have placed in the next biggest? Isnt the idea to grow the sport at all levels? Give the colleges more kids to look at, not every BIG school kid is going to fill every college spot available, some of those spots will be filled by smaller school kids. Not every state champ wants to attend a NAIA school either. Someone needs to fill those spots. From 1976-2005 I have seen many good things happen in Michigan and I see the same tendencies happening here in Tennessee. Just my thought. Thank you for your time.

Hamblin

[SAC]

Nevermind, this has just become another thread for complaining...

Edited February 20, 2013 by SAC

[BoroRef]

Please allow me to add a different look at this subject. Growing up in Michigan we were exposed to a 4 class system. Michigan was a 2 class system as far back as the state keeps records, (1961). In 1967 they created a 3rd class. In 1974 they split again and created a 4 class system, A,B,C, and D. Now it is called Division 1,2,3, and 4. Michigan had to start somewhere just as Tennessee has. In some ways Tennessee is seeing the same type of growth as Michigan, maybe a little slower, yet growth just the same. What are we seeking for Tennessee? Do we want to eventually be called a "PowerHouse" or maybe a "Traditional Hot Bed?" We have to start somewhere. When I graduated in 1982 we had very little to do post-season. USA Kids had a few tournaments here and there, but we had to travel far to get to them. AAU started coming on and eventually MYWA was started. Now they have 5 different sanctioning entities. They didnt start at 6 dividions and reduce to 4.

Here is another perspective. School A has 1500 students, while school B has 400. Who has a greater pool to pull from? More programs start up every year. The sport keeps growing. Look for yourself.

Now another look at Michigan. Every school has the option to schedule who they want beyond the teams they need to seed against at Team State. Kids from every division go on to college and wrestle. Go to michigangrappler.com or the MHSAA and look up the names. You will see this to be true. My brother won 6 team titles (Division 3) 2000-2012 coaching against the toughest D1 and D2 schools he could schedule. Youth programs are popping up everywhere there as well as here. Give the sport some room to grow. If the plan fails you can say "I told you so." If it succedes we can all join in that growth together. Michigan has grown every year because it is not being held back. Think of it this way, If you have 14 State Champs every year, how many will go to college? How many kids will miss out because they just missed placing in the big one but could have placed in the next biggest? Isnt the idea to grow the sport at all levels? Give the colleges more kids to look at, not every BIG school kid is going to fill every college spot available, some of those spots will be filled by smaller school kids. Not every state champ wants to attend a NAIA school either. Someone needs to fill those spots. From 1976-2005 I have seen many good things happen in Michigan and I see the same tendencies happening here in Tennessee. Just my thought. Thank you for your time.

Hamblin

 

Coach Hamblin:

 

Well put.....

 

To add some statistics to the debate consider the following:

 

Other TSSAA sports that separate A-AA from AAA in awarding individual championships have experienced the following since the 2007-08 year compared to 2012-13 according the NFHS data.

 

2007-08 2011-12

Tennis 259 teams 2,457 part. 262 teams 2,571 part. (up 1.1%/4.6%)

Track 254 teams 7,302 part. 273 teams 7,203 part. (up 7%/DOWN 1.4%)

CC 264 teams 3,713 part. 291 teams 4,069 part. (up 10.2%/9.6%)

Golf 315 teams 2,815 part 318 teams 2,678 part. (up .9% / DOWN 4.9%)

Wrestling 158 teams 3,875 part 169 teams 4,336 part (up 7%/11.8%)

 

These number indicate several key facts:

 

Compared to the other sports that currently award the separate individual championships:

1. Wrestling has grown at the 2nd highest team rate and HIGHEST individual rate in the TSSAA.

2. Wrestling has the lowest team totals (indicating huge room to grow and particularly at the small school level).

3. Wrestling has the 2nd highest individual participation numbers (although they are skewed based on the numbers of individuals on a school team).

4. Female number are not even included as the TSSAA only recently started a sanctioned individual tournament . (one that did not even exist in 2007-08, Indicating father room for growth based on increased female participation ).

 

Facts aside no one is complaining here or anywhere else for that matter about the other TSSAA sports championships are being "watered down". If participation growth is our key primary objective then the argument about a "true state champion" has already been a moot point for several years given the DI/DII split. And that is something we can all agree that will not likely at any time and point in the near future be retracted. I want this sport the continue to grow and succeed as much as anyone else does that is involved. I highly doubt that the intent of the coaches and the TSSAA Board of Control was merely to allow the small school teams to "pad the numbers" as has been suggested. The intent was to allow the athletes the chances to build confidence through success and opportunity. High School coaches that I have had the extreme pleasure to meet and work with throughout the state have not shown to be all about the numbers. The are not compensated near enough for their tireless time and efforts to be so egotistically driven for such an selfish end result. Give them the credit and respect they are due. The concern about teams/wrestlers not wrestling others to establish a more accurate competitiveness comparison is a decision each coach makes and ultimately must face the consequences of. That argument will exist regardless of a split already exists and proves again to be a moot point.

 

All of this taken into account, I am for one, in favor of the split and personally think it will positively impact the sport. I find no real compelling arguments based on the current state of the sport to support otherwise and furthermore find no data to suggest a separation will diminish the sports success since 2007-08.

 

Kyle Davis

Edited February 20, 2013 by BoroRef

[werazzlin]

I am all about growth of the sport. I feel the split will put more people in the belachers, and allow more kids to get to state tournament. Which in turn will make for better wrestlers in the state. See, I feel the more you expose the kids to state level, the better they become.

I feel that the quality of wrestler in Tennessee is gradually getting better. Wrestlers now are way better than ten years ago. For example the kids that are one match away from medalling now, would have been medalist back then.

[rasslinlite]

No they would not. Back then when there was one state no split they only placed 4 per weight class. So how does one match away from 6th place come close to the top 4 back then ?