THOUGHTS ON PITCH COUNTS

[thegreatwhite1]

They should put a pitch count into effect in middle school baseball.

[ecu]

Pitch counts are subjective to the arm. Kids need to throw more to build their arms up. Go back and look at 60's and 70's with  the 4 man rotation and finishing games. More innings and less injuries to arm. Mechanics for pitchers for Mets (Seaver, Ryan, Koosman, etc.) were basically the same and they all had long careers. Maybe we are babying arms too much.

[SuperSport]

Pitch counts are subjective to the arm. Kids need to throw more to build their arms up. Go back and look at 60's and 70's with  the 4 man rotation and finishing games. More innings and less injuries to arm. Mechanics for pitchers for Mets (Seaver, Ryan, Koosman, etc.) were basically the same and they all had long careers. Maybe we are babying arms too much.

Correct Sir!

 

It's part of the over-medicated world we live in. A little pain and we go see ol' doc. Guess how ol' doc makes money? BY DIAGNOSING AND OPERATING ON YOU! It's a business.

 

Sadly, however, Dr. Andrews is fixing to get all the long tossing programs and what not shut down with his "tread on a tire" philosophy.

[ksgovols]

I think there's some validity to taking some time off rather than pitching year round.  Youth baseball was set up completely different in the 50's, 60's and 70's.  There was a shorter season and most leagues were 9-12 and then 13-15.  You didn't have all these specialized age groupings that maximized playing time every year.  Kids developed over time rather than playing in 8U World Series travelball tournaments and playing 60 games a summer.  Kids threw fewer pitches overall, then they put up their gloves and played another sport.  Today, if they can pitch, they are subject to being overused and they'll play 50-80 games rather than the 30-40 they used to play.

 

Besides a pitch count per game, I'd promote a pitch count total that can't be exceeded in a 12 month period of time and graduated days rest for exceeding certain limits.  While arm problems are subjective and vary with each pitcher, there is a range that's within the norm that should be followed.  We didn't hear about all the ACL injuries back in the day either.  You messed up your knee and you were done.  Same with UCL's in pitcher's arms.  They didn't fix them because they couldn't be fixed.

Edited June 9, 2014 by ksgovols

[Countryboy212]

First and foremost, bringing Nolan Ryan into the conversation is not really realistic -- in every sport there are freaks of nature in which defy the norm, Ryan was definitely one of those. Just built differently than the rest of the world. Secondly, this point can be argued all day and I don't think there is a right answer. My side of the argument comes from how baseball is being played at a young age. Kids are becoming specialized very early and never having time away from the game of baseball (travel baseball allows for year round games in a lot areas). So, you have kids focusing on solely pitching and doing so nearly year round...rather than playing football, basketball, soccer, etc. and giving their arms a rest. Theyre logging so many more pitches prior to high school ball, college and pro ball than they used to. Hence, why the majority of the increased Tommy John surgeries are occurring at such a young age in kids.

 

There's no doubt that playing more games at a younger age and playing all year round is the biggest reason for injuries. You didn't have that before. Kids played during their season and then played a different sport after. In order to make it now you almost have to play all year round.

 

Its not that people had no pitch count it's that pictures flamed out earlier and just never made it to the big leagues, it's that pitchers flamed out earlier and just never made it to the bigs. They threw a ton in the minors and if they got injured, adios. We'll find someone else. Sandy Koufax ended his career after winning 27 games because of arthritis in his elbow. There also wasn't the financial ties that teams have now. Someone like a Brandon Beachy would have been launched after his first Tommy John, or launched completely before TJ was invented. He's stuck around to have his second TJ surgery. He would have been a ghost in the 30s-70s.

 

I honestly believe it's flat out luck that pitchers don't get injured.

The reason pitch counts exist is because of the effects of pitching while fatigued. When you're fatigued your mechanics break down. When your mechanics break down you run the risk of injury. That being said, 100 is kind of an arbitrary number. I rarely, if ever, throw my kids over 100 pitches, especially early in the season when it's cold. But it's definitely dependent on the kid and how I observe his effort. If he's laboring at 80, I'm probably yanking him. If he's cruising at 85-90, I'm going to run him out there for potentially another. It might be batter to batter at that point.

 

I would never suggest a kid throw through pain in order to work through it. You're opening yourself up to injuring the complimentary muscles. For instance, if your elbow hurts, you're going to overcompensate with your shoulder. It's why you work the heck out of your rotator cuff after TJ. Its also why I blew out my labrum while I was in college. It's a subconscious over compensation.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Countryboy212

[maryVOLrebel]

Travel ball is HUGE factor here...way too young to be throwing as much as they often do. I'm pretty sure Nolan Ryan or anyone from that era regularly threw up to 180 pitches per week...I just threw that number out there, don't really know if it's relavant...

[davidlimbaugh]

Travel ball is HUGE factor here...way too young to be throwing as much as they often do. I'm pretty sure Nolan Ryan or anyone from that era regularly threw up to 180 pitches per week...I just threw that number out there, don't really know if it's relavant...

 

Old School baseball:  http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN196307020.shtml

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/the_bonus/06/28/kaplan.spahn.marichal/

Edited June 12, 2014 by davidlimbaugh