Who is Playing Up?

[chrisburr]

Bring back the Z-Plan

4 Quadrants with 8 teams each seeded 1-8

Only Region Champions get autobids

8 Auto Bids (Region champs) 24 Wild Cards

[cbg]

11 hours ago, tradertwo said:

It would be terrible because it would reverse the least politicized and most valid decision that TSSAA has made since their inception. No public school anyplace in Tn. can legitimately compete with a private located in a metropolitan area. Don't bother giving examples of "this public school beat that private" either we're talking basic function...privates control their enrollment and SELECT each on an individual basis while publics must accept any and all who register until capacity is reached...that undisputed advantage alone creates an unbridgeable gap. Rules should always be proactive in nature, and the split does not separate schools who USE their built-in advantage over publics, it separates schools who HAVE that built in advantage should they decide to use it.

Then how do the public schools in Florida, Texas, Georgia, California, Pennsylvania, etc… all compete with the private schools?  Heck in Texas the public schools are so much better than the private schools only a select few private schools are allowed to participate against the public schools.  It’s all a mindset, in that people in Tennessee convinced themselves several years ago that the public schools were not as good as the private schools.  No different in the academic testing that is done in Tennessee. Public school students take the TCAP that measures a students ability against other students from Tennessee.  Many other school districts across the country take the Stanford Achievement Test or other standardized test which measures ones academic ability against not only their local school district or state but the nation.  Let’s not forget that at one time Tennessee public school students took the Stanford Achievement Test but the administrators and the “NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND” advocate groups didn’t like the results compared to the rest of the country.  Athletics are nothing more than an extension of the academic classroom with valuable lessons being taught each day.  It’s time to stop telling the public school kids in Tennessee that they are not as good as the private schools kids in both academics and athletics.  Let’s go compete in everything that we do.  As a former public school student athlete I am tired of the excuses being made, figure it out.

Edited October 23, 2022 by cbg

[tradertwo]

1 hour ago, cbg said:

Then how do the public schools in Florida, Texas, Georgia, California, Pennsylvania, etc… all compete with the private schools?  Heck in Texas the public schools are so much better than the private schools only a select few private schools are allowed to participate against the public schools.  It’s all a mindset, in that people in Tennessee convinced themselves that the public schools were not a good as the private schools.  No different in the academic testing that is done in Tennessee. Public school students take the TCAP that measures a students ability against other students from Tennessee.  Many other school districts take the Stanford Achievement Test or other standardized test which measures ones academic ability against not only their state but the nation.  Let’s not forget that at one time Tennessee public school students took the Stanford Achievement Test but the administrators and the “NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND” advocate groups didn’t like the results compared to the rest of the country.  Athletics are nothing more than another classroom with valuable lessons being taught every day.  It’s time to stop telling the public school kids in Tennessee that they are not as good as the private schools kids in both academics and athletics.  Let’s go compete in everything that we do.  As a former public school student athlete I am tired of the excuses being made, figure it out.

It's way simpler than that. Privates SELECT their entire student body from a pool of applicants and reserve the right to restrict enrollment. If they chose to do so, they could admit only football players. Were not debating whether they do, we're examining whether the opportunity is there. The basic mechanics of the acquisition of your student body is different from the ground up. Football teams are assembled from the student body, thus the selection of participants is also different, dictating the need for a separate division. In one simple statement...private schools have the unrestricted ability to hand select their football team from a large pool of prospects, while restricting overall enrollment (classification). 

[cbg]

7 hours ago, tradertwo said:

It's way simpler than that. Privates SELECT their entire student body from a pool of applicants and reserve the right to restrict enrollment. If they chose to do so, they could admit only football players. Were not debating whether they do, we're examining whether the opportunity is there. The basic mechanics of the acquisition of your student body is different from the ground up. Football teams are assembled from the student body, thus the selection of participants is also different, dictating the need for a separate division. In one simple statement...private schools have the unrestricted ability to hand select their football team from a large pool of prospects, while restricting overall enrollment (classification). 

Why are the public schools in other states having little difficulty playing against the private schools and Tennessee has issues?  This talk began in the 1970’s when I was a public school student and it continues today.  It’s much easier to complain than actually get out on the field or court and win against the private schools.  The fact is that kids are kids and it has much more to do with the adults than the kids.  I will say that the boarding schools do have a distinct advantage that if they elect to use that it would be difficult to overcome but not the typical private day school.  With that being said if it’s a boarding school you just go and compete to find out what your weakness may be.  You speak of private schools selecting their students, what do the public magnet and public charter schools do?  Do the magnet and charter schools which use public tax dollars not limit their enrollment?  Everyone use to complain about the open zoned public schools but the fact is that a majority of public schools are and have been open zoned or a student pays a small tuition fee (less than $1500.00) to attend if they live in another county.  In closing I will say that there is absolutely zero reason that with individual championship sports (track & field, wrestling, bowling, tennis, golf, etc…) that we should ever crown more than one champion.  As adults it’s our responsibility to teach children and youth how to compete both in academics, athletics and life. It’s no wonder that when these young adults go out into the real world and have to compete with individuals from all over the world for jobs they have problems and don’t think that things are fair.  It’s our fault because we have allowed the public education to spread the big lie that they are not good enough to compete with anyone and everyone.

Edited October 23, 2022 by cbg

[tradertwo]

1 hour ago, cbg said:

Why are the public schools in other states having little difficulty playing against the private schools and Tennessee has issues?  This talk began in the 1970’s when I was a public school student and it continues today.  It’s much easier to complain than actually get out on the field or court and win against the private schools.  The fact is that kids are kids and it has much more to do with the adults than the kids.  I will say that the boarding schools do have a distinct advantage that if they elect to use that it would be difficult to overcome but not the typical private day school.  With that being said if it’s a boarding school you just go and compete to find out what your weakness may be.  You speak of private schools selecting their students, what do the public magnet and public charter schools do?  Do the magnet and charter schools which use public tax dollars not limit their enrollment?  Everyone use to complain about the open zoned public schools but the fact is that a majority of public schools are and have been open zoned or a student pays a small tuition fee (less than $1500.00) to attend if they live in another county.  In closing I will say that there is absolutely zero reason that with individual championship sports (track & field, wrestling, bowling, tennis, golf, etc…) that we should ever crown more than one champion.  As adults it’s our responsibility to teach children and youth how to compete both in academics, athletics and life. It’s no wonder that when these young adults go out into the real world and have to compete with individuals from all over the world for jobs they have problems and don’t think that things are fair.  It’s our fault because we have allowed the public education to spread the big lie that they are not good enough to compete with anyone and everyone.

Article 3 of TSSAA's by-laws...fostering fair competition "level playing field". Demonstrate how a rural public school who enrolls every child should be considered as equal to a metro private school who reserves the ability to cherry pick from populations of 100,000 people regarding athletics. Do that one simple thing and I will gladly concede that you are right. Keep in mind that I don't consider an example of "this school does this or that" as relevant to this discussion...as stated before, the opportunity to gain an advantage dictates the necessity for the split, not the practices of individual schools.

[cbg]

3 hours ago, tradertwo said:

Article 3 of TSSAA's by-laws...fostering fair competition "level playing field". Demonstrate how a rural public school who enrolls every child should be considered as equal to a metro private school who reserves the ability to cherry pick from populations of 100,000 people regarding athletics. Do that one simple thing and I will gladly concede that you are right. Keep in mind that I don't consider an example of "this school does this or that" as relevant to this discussion...as stated before, the opportunity to gain an advantage dictates the necessity for the split, not the practices of individual schools.

 

3 hours ago, tradertwo said:

Article 3 of TSSAA's by-laws...fostering fair competition "level playing field". Demonstrate how a rural public school who enrolls every child should be considered as equal to a metro private school who reserves the ability to cherry pick from populations of 100,000 people regarding athletics. Do that one simple thing and I will gladly concede that you are right. Keep in mind that I don't consider an example of "this school does this or that" as relevant to this discussion...as stated before, the opportunity to gain an advantage dictates the necessity for the split, not the practices of individual schools.

What about the magnet schools and charter schools that select their students and keep their enrollment down?  Again, I just hate telling kids that they aren’t good enough to compete with private school, open zoned schools charter school, etc… kids. Believe me when I say that in the mid 70’s I had a coach that hated to compete against the private schools.  The fact is that he was soft and didn’t want to work as hard as the private school coaches.

[chrisburr]

We need to Bring back the Z Plan

8 Automatic Bids (Region winners) + 24 Wild Cards per the 6 Classes

have the 4 Quadrants seeded 1-8 each

Bring back the Z-Plan!

[Rawheadnbloodybones]

7 hours ago, cbg said:

Why are the public schools in other states having little difficulty playing against the private schools and Tennessee has issues?  This talk began in the 1970’s when I was a public school student and it continues today.  It’s much easier to complain than actually get out on the field or court and win against the private schools.  The fact is that kids are kids and it has much more to do with the adults than the kids.  I will say that the boarding schools do have a distinct advantage that if they elect to use that it would be difficult to overcome but not the typical private day school.  With that being said if it’s a boarding school you just go and compete to find out what your weakness may be.  You speak of private schools selecting their students, what do the public magnet and public charter schools do?  Do the magnet and charter schools which use public tax dollars not limit their enrollment?  Everyone use to complain about the open zoned public schools but the fact is that a majority of public schools are and have been open zoned or a student pays a small tuition fee (less than $1500.00) to attend if they live in another county.  In closing I will say that there is absolutely zero reason that with individual championship sports (track & field, wrestling, bowling, tennis, golf, etc…) that we should ever crown more than one champion.  As adults it’s our responsibility to teach children and youth how to compete both in academics, athletics and life. It’s no wonder that when these young adults go out into the real world and have to compete with individuals from all over the world for jobs they have problems and don’t think that things are fair.  It’s our fault because we have allowed the public education to spread the big lie that they are not good enough to compete with anyone and everyone.

Private schools do and will continue to have the advantage. I believe it's your heart your speaking with and not your head. Yes there are as many good athletes and smart kids in public schools as there are in private schools. Where the advantage lies is funding (private donors) , less red tape from govt , much much much more is expected from the students and athlete. I could go on and on . 

Also those states you mentioned have  much better governing bodies in charge of athletics than we do here in TN. Tssaa is NOT good! 

[tradertwo]

10 hours ago, cbg said:

 

What about the magnet schools and charter schools that select their students and keep their enrollment down?  Again, I just hate telling kids that they aren’t good enough to compete with private school, open zoned schools charter school, etc… kids. Believe me when I say that in the mid 70’s I had a coach that hated to compete against the private schools.  The fact is that he was soft and didn’t want to work as hard as the private school coaches.

I've been sticking to facts and policy, and you've been basing your viewpoint on selected examples and your personal opinion...since you seem to be genuine, I went to the (not much) trouble of running down some numbers from one particular school in Tn. that came to my mind because one of their fans (nice guy) used to post here and we had the same conversation. From the school's own website, I went back 10 years and counted 19 listed state championships, and that the school advertises that 95% of students participate in athletics. The enrollment of the school is 209. I'm not even going down the road of writing a paragraph or two to illuminate what you're obviously intelligent enough to see for yourself from that example alone. 

[theawesomebro]

29 minutes ago, tradertwo said:

I've been sticking to facts and policy, and you've been basing your viewpoint on selected examples and your personal opinion...since you seem to be genuine, I went to the (not much) trouble of running down some numbers from one particular school in Tn. that came to my mind because one of their fans (nice guy) used to post here and we had the same conversation. From the school's own website, I went back 10 years and counted 19 listed state championships, and that the school advertises that 95% of students participate in athletics. The enrollment of the school is 209. I'm not even going down the road of writing a paragraph or two to illuminate what you're obviously intelligent enough to see for yourself from that example alone. 

trader, I always appreciate your posts.  what team do you root for btw?  I dont think I know...

[TNClassified]

On 10/22/2022 at 6:24 AM, cbg said:

Why would it be so terrible for everyone but the fans?  Would it be due to the fact that coaches and players must actually win and be good to be rewarded with a playoff appearance 

It takes a ton of work, plus a ton of luck, to win consistently in high school football.  It is extremely difficult to turn a high school program into a winner, especially if they haven't been a proven winner before.  Football coaches have to convert not only the teenagers playing for them, but everybody else that is involved in the decision making process that affects a football program.  Private schools can go out and get the best players from the public schools that are around them.  Public schools get what the privates do not want.  Private schools can get the Jimmy's and the Joe's if they chose to do so.  Public schools may have a Jimmy or a Joe, but they also have Randy, Gary, Jerry, and Donnie.  

[tradertwo]

1 hour ago, theawesomebro said:

trader, I always appreciate your posts.  what team do you root for btw?  I dont think I know...

Scotts Hill