Why State should be double elimination

[CoachBray]

We have been talking FOREVER about making the state tournament double elimination. So why has it not been done? Nobody is happy with this format and it has costed A LOT of fantastic wrestlers their chance to place. As a coach, there is nothing worse than having a senior bust his butt for you for years and have one bad match at state and not get carried! These kids DESERVE a chance to wrestle back through!

 

Take this year. 6 region champions were upset in the 1st round by four seeds. 6!!!!!!!!

Do these champions not deserve the chance to take 3rd? Well, they didn't get it, and many of them were seniors. Take a look at this list of wrestlers who did not ger carried and were OUT OF THE STATE TOURNAMENT!!!!!

 

103

Jantzen Pendley (Springfield, 9th) Region Champ

Brett Usary (Scince Hill, 8th) Region Champ

Jordan Spencer (Houston, 12th) ranked all year

 

112

Alex Bogdan (Hendersonville, 10th) Region Champ

Dilgish Tayar (Overton, 12th) ranked all year

 

119

Brad McAlister (McGavock, 11th) Region Champ

Cristian Rudas (East Ridge, 10th) Region Finalist

 

125

Jason Ricker (Greenville, 11th) Region Finalist

Johnnie Ramos (Cleveland, 12th) ranked all year

Demarcus Cranfill (Rhea Co, 11th) ranked all year

 

130

Matthew Felty (Daniel Boone, 11th) Region Champ

 

135

Lucas Shuler (Seymour, 10th) Region Champ

David Hunt (Collierville, 12th) Region Champ, state medalist

 

140

Ulric Winesburg (Soddy Daisy, 10th) Region Finalist

David Williamson (Dobbyns Bennett, 11th) Region Champ

John Gannon (Rossview, 12th) ranked all year

Nick Chamberlain (Brentwood, 12th) ranked all year

 

145

Mel Bryant (Hixson, 12th) Region Champ

Justin Tisdale (Karns, 12th) Region Champ

 

152

Ben Burney (Hixson, 12th) Region Champ

Jonathan Heacock (Franklin, 11th) state medalist

 

160

Drew Beamer (Science Hill, 12th) Region Champ

Casey Plumlee (Harpeth, 12th) Region Finalist

 

171

Tyler Bahn (Cleveland, 12th) Region Champ

Monterrace Reams (Glencliff, 9th) Region Champ

Justin Chizmor (Elizabethton, 12th) Region Champ

 

189

Scott Berry (Cordova, 12th) Region Finalist

Phillip Cable (Maryville, 11th) Region Finalist

 

215

Matt Lettner (Soddy Daisy, 10th) Region Champion

Shane Langford (Cookeville, 12th) Region Finalist, ranked in state

Stephen Ball (FRA, 11th) Region Finalist

 

275

Nick Shadrick (Soddy Daisy, 11th) ranked all year

Stephen Slowey (Brentwood, 12th) Region Finalist

 

Check out all that talent! These young men should have had the right to go for 3rd.

[DAL]

I agree. The state event should be a double elimination tournament.

 

This idea is brought up at the State Tournament Coaches meeting every year, and every year the idea gets turned down.

 

I would like to know what challenges exist that prevents the TSSAA from making the state tournament a double elimination event. I think we, coaches, would all would like to know. If we knew what they were, then we could, all of us, could work together to find solutions.

[dentdoc09]

With double elimination, the amount of time it would take to do all of that wrestling might be tremendous. This may be one of the reasons/excuses. I'm sure it could be worked out though. My question is this: What does it take to get things done? It seems there are a lot of complaints about various things. Who has control? Is there some sort of pressure on the coaches not to change it?

[tophat]

I like the idea, Coach how would it work in the finals? Look at some of the matches in this years finals in D-1 2 defensive pins, a 1 to nothing, and some questionable points given in at least three other matches or would it stay single elimination in the finals and no one could advance past 3rd in the consolations?

Edited February 22, 2005 by tophat

[CoachDelgado]

I like the idea, Coach how would it work in the finals?  Look at some of the matches in this years finals in D-1  2 defensive pins, a 1 to nothing, and some questionable points given in at least three other matches or would it stay single elimination in the finals and no one could advance past 3rd in the consolations?

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Double elimination would mean that if you lose before the finals you have a chance to wrestle back in the consolation bracket for no better than 3rd place. Finalist would wrestle for 1st and 2nd. Consolation semi-finalist wrestle for 3rd and 4th. Consolation semi-final losers (this would be their second loss) would wrestle for 5th and 6th. The current carry format has 630 total matches. A double elimination tourmanent would be 854 total matches. It was proposed to star Thursday 2 hours earlier. 112 matches, the first round of consolation, could be wrestled that evening. That would leave 112 extra more matches to be wrestled on Friday than we did this year. The Division I was out of the gym at noon. DII did not use all 8 mats. It is very workable. It would just make for a longer Friday.

Edited February 22, 2005 by CoachDelgado

[reuben128]

i thought about the idea and i figure that there would be 30 total matches in the consolation bracket if it happens this way... all 16 1st rd losers wrestle 8 consolation matches. those winners wrestle in another 8 matches against the 8 2nd rd losers. those 8 winners wrestle in 4 matches, then the 4 winners wrestle in the consolation quarterfinals against against the 4 losers from the championship quarterfinals. the rest is the same... consolation semi's match the 2 consolation winners against the 2 losers from the semifinals to decide the 3rd-4th and 5th-6th place matches.

 

I know that's real confusing (i took a few mins and drew it out on paper), but in this model a loser in the 1st rd would have to win 5 straight matches to place and 7 straight matches to place 3rd. that's an immense task, especially considering the 5 match rule, therefore a tournament of this magnitude kinda seems impractical. The wrestlers are already there for 3 days, and this format would keep them there for 4, maybe even 5. They still do have to attend school.

Edited February 22, 2005 by reuben128

[fiscon]

i thought about the idea and i figure that there would be 30 total matches in the consolation bracket if it happens this way... all 16 1st rd losers wrestle 8 consolation matches.  those winners wrestle in another 8 matches against the 8 2nd rd losers.  those 8 winners wrestle in 4 matches, then the 4 winners wrestle in the consolation quarterfinals against against the 4 losers from the championship quarterfinals.  the rest is the same... consolation semi's match the 2 consolation winners against the 2 losers from the semifinals to decide the 3rd-4th and 5th-6th place matches.         

 

      I know that's real confusing (i took a few mins and drew it out on paper), but in this model a loser in the 1st rd would have to win 5 straight matches to place and 7 straight matches to place 3rd.  that's an immense task, especially considering the 5 match rule, therefore a tournament of this magnitude kinda seems impractical.  The wrestlers are already there for 3 days, and this format would keep them there for 4, maybe even 5.  They still do have to attend school.

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I don't think that it would add any additional days to the current system. I know that it has been shown to work inside the current schedule using the start time that CoachDelgado mentioned. Even wrestling the round of 32 then wrestling the conso round of 16 and then the Championship round 16 would not take that long on 8 mats on Thursday. Then when you start on Friday, you are where you were with the current system, plus maybe 1 round of consos. It is doable. It just needs to be proven to the TSSAA, and I think that the coaches are working on it. I would help if needed. If the DII uses double elimination, then the DI should have it also.

[delaWarr]

Double elimination has been on the coaches agenda for several years.

 

Some of you may not know that when the Nashville area and the Chattanooga area were about it, only eight wrestlers made it to the State. It was a Friday/Saturday carry event. Then, when other areas came on board, the numbers went up. There was always the real possibility that the qualifiers would be cut to three to keep the tournament manageable and to keep the time manageable. You have to keep in mind that there are administrators around the state who have genuine concerns about academics and class time missed (no matter the sport). At one point Middle Tennessee, with approximately 40% of the state's teams, was allowed to qualify six for the state (the state had four Regions). So the 16 man bracket had two pigtail matches. Then we went to eight Regions. The Regions were faced with the possibility of three qualifiers once again, with a 16 man bracket and 8 pigtails. As we are all aware, we have had three days of wrestling with four qualifiers. The TSSAA has heard the coaches on many issues and has responded in wrestling's favor. We now have grown to the point that equity demands the realienment that the governing body has set up for next year...again faced with the reduction to three qualifiers, which seems to be for real this time around.

 

The sport has grown and the TSSAA has tried to soften the blow and to honor the coaches wishes when it feels it can keep management within certain boundaries. Few of us have any idea at all about what all goes into a tournament of this size. We can offer any number of suggestions that seem reasonable to us that would improve the quality of the tournament, but we may not know what sort of major effect just a small tweek might have on the big picture.

 

I understand Region Five has a plan that would require minimal additional time. It is always worth a shot to advance worthwhile proposals. But just keep in mind that the guys sitting on the Board are folks who have to be convinced...and they are administrators who will be mindful of any additional class time missed.

Edited February 22, 2005 by delaWarr

[jgannonnvp]

I have to agree with Coach Bray. For the biggest tournament of the year and it is not a double elimination, I do not understand that and have never understood it. Worst case you could start earlier on Thursday, lets face it the west wrestlers are already there and everyone else could come on Wednesday night and be there for an early weigh-in and start wrestling at say 10am, currently we start at 4pm. No additional school would be missed.

 

If that doesnt work then run a substate round on Saturday to decrease the size of the bracket to work a double elimination.

 

If that doesnt work then make all tournaments for the year a carry tournament for the 1st two rounds and see how many wreslters and parents join in for changing it to a double elimination tourney. Most wreslters never get a chance to witness a carry tournament, I do know that the first round at Father Ryan was a carry and there was quite a stir about it... I am curious to see if it is that way this year again. Maybe that is the solution... make all season tournys a carry tourny so everyone can be ready for it by the time they get to state, if the cant fight back in consolations at state then why should they be able to during the season???

[CoachBruce]

mindful of any additional class time missed.

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but don't most (75% or more) of the teams travel at Least 2 hours or more anyway? the teams that do this, usually miss all day on Thursday anyway, with Memphis (at least when I wrestled) missing Wednesday as well. why would an extra round or 2 change that? the teams that don't travel that far are already out of school and there- the ones that come farther have been there from the day before.

Edited February 22, 2005 by HBK19

[rigger101]

mindful of any additional class time missed.

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but don't most (75% or more) of the teams travel at Least 2 hours or more anyway? the teams that do this, usually miss all day on Thursday anyway, with Memphis (at least when I wrestled) missing Wednesday as well. why would an extra round or 2 change that? the teams that don't travel that far are already out of school and there- the ones that come farther have been there from the day before.

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If you travel that far you should get two shots at it! I've seen some great kids knocked out early. Then come back and win state the next year. It needs to be like the majority of the tourneys the kids wrestle in.

[dentdoc09]

Perhaps instead of starting only two hours earlier on Thursday, wrestling could begin in the morning. This way, Friday wouldn't have to necessarily be longer. Teams could do their travelling on Wednesday night. Although I acknowledge the importance of school, missing another hour or two of class shouldn't be a big problem. Besides, how many wrestlers would be concentrating on school when state is so close? I know it wasn't on my mind that Wednesday afternoon.