Open zones, Privates, and Public Schools

[NoNameD]

How many of this year teams are Open Zone? I think two are private schools CAK and Friendship, so of the other 10 how many would be OZ?

 

I do not know. I think that you would have to look at many years past to get a pattern to see how open zone tuition schools and private school playing public to see how much they dominate in the playoffs. Maybe govolsknow.com would know. He does not want to adress the issue of privates playing against public schools that do not allow tuition students. That is where the real disadvantage is. Public non tuition schools against privates and semi privates like Alcoa, Greenville, and Maryville. Has that answered your question.

[sawdust76]

For those who are wondering about where the CAK starters (according to the TSSAA pregame info) came from, I will list it to the best of my knowledge below. Anyone who sees an error feel free to correct me.

 

QB High #12 here at least since middle school

TB Rathbone #32, transferred from Blount Co, had to sit out a year

FB Henson #22 here at least since MS

WR Smith #25, here at least since MS

WR Howell #16, here at least since MS

WR Murchinson #5, here at least since MS

LT Kendrick #63, transferred from Grace, had to sit a year

LG Jenkins #53, I'm not sure

C Gass #52, here at least since MS

RG North #72, here at least since MS

RT Dalton #70, here at least since MS

 

LE Matlock #58, here at least since MS

DT Powers #75, here at least since MS

NG Sizemore #60, here at least since MS

RE Henson #22, here at least since MS

OLB Bailey #24, here at least since MS

ILB Winzenburg, moved to town from Wisconsin

ILB Maddux #18, started 9th grade, came from Powell system after redistricting forced a move to Karns

OLB August #33, here at least since MS

LC Spencer #23, started 9th grade, came from Lenoir City when a relative started coaching basketball at CAK

FS Ritchie #11, here at least since MS

RC Redford #17, here at least since MS

 

If you examine the above, its pretty obvious that like most schools, CAK plays with CAK kids. And like most publics, we have a few kids who move or transfer in and a few kids who move or transfer out. I have been watching the vast majority of the kids who won the gold ball last night since they were in the 6th grade.

[/quote/ so what you're saying is yall recruit middle school players,get em in training.smart!your line looks college size,must have a good training table!

[barb]

So do you overlook the obvious fact that 100% of the private school players are tuition students while only a very small number of ooz school players are tuition students? And how would you apply a multiplier without inviting lawsuits from non-tuition players from those schools?

[cncgonzo]

Many of CAK's players have been at the school since K-1st grade. If you can forcast a player 10 years in the future, you really are a great "recruiter". I here Coach Bradley is visiting several daycares this week for the 2025 season.

[Govolsknox]

Do you think they will change the multiplier next time they set the classes? IMO the 1.8 is to high. If they want to "punish" private schools I think 1.5 would be enough. I just hope they do not raise it.

 

I think there was some discussion at the last meeting of doing away with the multiplier, or perhaps altering the figure used. I personally am okay with having a multiplier applied to schools that accept tuition students, I just believe the TSSAA should be consistent and apply it to ALL schools who have student athletes who pay tuition to attend. Let me ask a question: Who has the bigger advantage, a school that requires any family wanting to send their student athlete there $8000 - $12,000 or a school who only charges $500 to attend and participate in athletics? Which is likely to have a bigger potential influx of athletic talent? The answer is obvious and the TSSAA has ignored this loophole to date.

 

How many of this year teams are Open Zone? I think two are private schools CAK and Friendship, so of the other 10 how many would be OZ?

 

The term "Open Zone" is really misleading in my opinion. Some schools are technically open zoned and or accept tuition students, but as a matter of practice don't have any appreciable quantity of players paying tuition that actually play.

 

 

It is my opinion that any school that can pick and choose it's players can compete in 6AAAAAA classifacation look at Brent wood Acd. a single A school but plays in big school division, so that said, how can it possiably be fair for public schools to play privates?

 

I understand your point, but remember, the D2 privates CAN offer scholarships to student athletes. This is a HUGE difference as compared with a D1 private. Imagine if a school like CPA or CAK could offer a tremendous athlete who happened to be extremely underprivileged a full ride, or pay the vast majority of his tuition. I can only imagine there would be a number of very good athletes who would like the opportunity. This scenario is potentially commonplace in D2, but not for D1 privates. The TSSAA has appropriately addressed the issue that D1 and D2 privates are not on a level playing field.

 

In the Knoxville area, there is A LOT of moving from one school to another within public schools. Some reasons are: 1. move to a new home, rental or purchase. 2. No Child Left Behind. 3. Magnet School. I don't know if your area has a lot of movement to and from one public school to another, but it is common place here. I am personally surprised that CAK hasn't had more influx of student athlete transfers over the last few years. We've had a handful, but most of our growth has been at the younger grades or kids who don't play football, so far at least. Recent success may improve that. Right now, we are below average in transfers IMO, considering we have no district to draw from. CAK will never "inherit" a football player just because he grows up in our district, since we have no district. They have to choose to pay to come there.

 

D-1 privates can't pick and choose their players, they are not giving scholarships. Look at it this way: I live in Blount County, if I can transport my kid to Knoxville (CAK) and can afford the tuition, I can send him to CAK. If I want to send him to Alcoa, being I don't live in the city, they will not provide transportation for my kid to come to their school, but if I can transport them and am willing to pay their tuition ($500), then my kid can go to Alcoa. The same goes for any kid in Knoxville that wanted to come to Alcoa, if they transport them and pay the tuition, all is good. What is the difference between Alcoa and CAK, the answer is CAK has to multiply their enrollment x1.8 to get the classification that they play in.

 

Very well put. The options that your family has for your son exemplify perfectly the similarities and differences between the two schools you mentioned, as it applies to TSSAA regulations. I will add that, as I understand it, there is another substantial difference. The QB for Alcoa this year attended Austin East last year. Completely legally, he moved to the Alcoa district and was eligible immediately to play football. Had he transferred to CAK, he would have had to sit out 1 year as he did not move a minimum of 25 miles. As I understand it, the 25 mile rule only applies to D1 privates. Again, no problem with the regulation, except that not all schools accepting tuition students have to live by the restriction.

 

 

I do not know. I think that you would have to look at many years past to get a pattern to see how open zone tuition schools and private school playing public to see how much they dominate in the playoffs. Maybe govolsknox.com would know. He does not want to adress the issue of privates playing against public schools that do not allow tuition students. That is where the real disadvantage is. Public non tuition schools against privates and semi privates like Alcoa, Greenville, and Maryville. Has that answered your question.

 

I agree with you for the most part. I am not as familiar with the particular concerns that your program has because I have not examined it like I have the Open Zone / Private issue. I will however point this out: the D1 privates have the 1.8 multiplier and the 25 mile rule, which are attempts by the TSSAA to level the playing field. Open zone publics have absolutely no restriction as compared to your closed zone school to level the playing field. I would opine THAT is where the real disadvantage is.

 

 

If you examine the above, its pretty obvious that like most schools, CAK plays with CAK kids. And like most publics, we have a few kids who move or transfer in and a few kids who move or transfer out. I have been watching the vast majority of the kids who won the gold ball last night since they were in the 6th grade.

so what you're saying is yall recruit middle school players,get em in training.smart!your line looks college size,must have a good training table!

 

Ha, good one. The reason I said, "at least since middle school" is because my child went to school with them and I watched them play MS football from 6th grade on. Most went to school with my child in elementary as well, but without turning it into a project looking at old yearbooks, I cannot accurately provide the info.

 

 

So do you overlook the obvious fact that 100% of the private school players are tuition students while only a very small number of ooz school players are tuition students? And how would you apply a multiplier without inviting lawsuits from non-tuition players from those schools?

 

Barb, you are correct, and no, I do not overlook this fact. Additionally, there are some "open zone" schools who have a substantial number of their starters / contributors that are from out of zone, while other "open zone" schools may have 1 or no starters / contributors. This is a complex problem. IMHO, that is why the TSSAA has ignored it to date. Frankly, it is not my job to solve the dilemma of how to equitably address the issue. That is the TSSAA's responsibility. A ratio? Give them a multiplier but not as large as a D1 private? eliminate the multiplier altogether? Again, the TSSAA is the one that has set a precedent of trying to level the playing field, and this is an obvious loophole.

 

Have you thought about this? If you offer just $500 tuition, are you more like a closed zone public (no tuition but you can only draw from your little school district), a D1 private ($8000-$12,000 to attend) or a D2 private that can provide financial assistance, thereby allowing students to attend at below market value? Is $500 a fair market value for a student to attend a school? Are they only spending $500 per student for their in zone students? If not, are they subsidizing the out of zone students by only charging them $500? Not advocating that open zone should play D2, but think about these questions and decide for yourself whether the current loophole is equitable.

 

Many of CAK's players have been at the school since K-1st grade. If you can forcast a player 10 years in the future, you really are a great "recruiter". I here Coach Bradley is visiting several daycares this week for the 2025 season.

 

That actually made me laugh. But so long as the daycares are initiating the visit and not coach Bradley initiating the visit, I guess I'm ok with it...

Edited December 5, 2011 by Govolsknox

[FootballDad]

I think there was some discussion at the last meeting of doing away with the multiplier, or perhaps altering the figure used. I personally am okay with having a multiplier applied to schools that accept tuition students, I just believe the TSSAA should be consistent and apply it to ALL schools who have student athletes who pay tuition to attend. Let me ask a question: Who has the bigger advantage, a school that requires any family wanting to send their student athlete there $8000 - $12,000 or a school who only charges $500 to attend and participate in athletics? Which is likely to have a bigger potential influx of athletic talent? The answer is obvious and the TSSAA has ignored this loophole to date.

 

 

 

The term "Open Zone" is really misleading in my opinion. Some schools are technically open zoned and or accept tuition students, but as a matter of practice don't have any appreciable quantity of players paying tuition that actually play.

 

 

 

 

I understand your point, but remember, the D2 privates CAN offer scholarships to student athletes. This is a HUGE difference as compared with a D1 private. Imagine if a school like CPA or CAK could offer a tremendous athlete who happened to be extremely underprivileged a full ride, or pay the vast majority of his tuition. I can only imagine there would be a number of very good athletes who would like the opportunity. This scenario is potentially commonplace in D2, but not for D1 privates. The TSSAA has appropriately addressed the issue that D1 and D2 privates are not on a level playing field.

 

In the Knoxville area, there is A LOT of moving from one school to another within public schools. Some reasons are: 1. move to a new home, rental or purchase. 2. No Child Left Behind. 3. Magnet School. I don't know if your area has a lot of movement to and from one public school to another, but it is common place here. I am personally surprised that CAK hasn't had more influx of student athlete transfers over the last few years. We've had a handful, but most of our growth has been at the younger grades or kids who don't play football, so far at least. Recent success may improve that. Right now, we are below average in transfers IMO, considering we have no district to draw from. CAK will never "inherit" a football player just because he grows up in our district, since we have no district. They have to choose to pay to come there.

 

 

 

Very well put. The options that your family has for your son exemplify perfectly the similarities and differences between the two schools you mentioned, as it applies to TSSAA regulations. I will add that, as I understand it, there is another substantial difference. The QB for Alcoa this year attended Austin East last year. Completely legally, he moved to the Alcoa district and was eligible immediately to play football. Had he transferred to CAK, he would have had to sit out 1 year as he did not move a minimum of 25 miles. As I understand it, the 25 mile rule only applies to D1 privates. Again, no problem with the regulation, except that not all schools accepting tuition students have to live by the restriction.

 

 

 

 

I agree with you entirely. I am not as familiar with the particular concerns that your program has because I have not examined it like I have the Open Zone / Private issue. I will however point this out: the D1 privates have the 1.8 multiplier and the 25 mile rule, which are attempts by the TSSAA to level the playing field. Open zone publics have absolutely no restriction as compared to your closed zone school to level the playing field. I would opine THAT is where the real disadvantage is.

 

 

 

Ha, good one. The reason I said, "at least since middle school" is because my child went to school with them and I watched them play MS football from 6th grade on. Most went to school with my child in elementary as well, but without turning it into a project looking at old yearbooks, I cannot accurately provide the info.

 

 

 

 

Barb, you are correct, and no, I do not overlook this fact. Additionally, there are some "open zone" schools who have a substantial number of their starters / contributors that are from out of zone, while other "open zone" schools may have 1 or no starters / contributors. This is a complex problem. IMHO, that is why the TSSAA has ignored it to date. Frankly, it is not my job to solve the dilemma of how to equitably address the issue. That is the TSSAA's responsibility. A ratio? Give them a multiplier but not as large as a D1 private? eliminate the multiplier altogether? Again, the TSSAA is the one that has set a precedent of trying to level the playing field, and this is an obvious loophole.

 

Have you thought about this? If you offer just $500 tuition, are you more like a closed zone public (no tuition but you can only draw from your little school district), a D1 private ($8000-$12,000 to attend) or a D2 private that can provide financial assistance, thereby allowing students to attend at below market value? Is $500 a fair market value for a student to attend a school? Are they only spending $500 per student for their in zone students? If not, are they subsidizing the out of zone students by only charging them $500? Not advocating that open zone should play D2, but think about these questions and decide for yourself whether the current loophole is equitable.

 

 

 

That actually made me laugh. But so long as the daycares are initiating the visit and not coach Bradley initiating the visit, I guess I'm ok with it...

 

Very well thought out and reasonable responses, as always, good post

Edited December 5, 2011 by FootballDad

[smeagle1]

So do you overlook the obvious fact that 100% of the private school players are tuition students while only a very small number of ooz school players are tuition students? And how would you apply a multiplier without inviting lawsuits from non-tuition players from those schools?

 

 

Yes all privates students are tuition paying or on scholarship and they should be paying the same as all non-athlete students at the school. In the case of OOZ students like at Alcoa, Greeneville and Maryville these OOZ students pay much less than the actual cost to the tax payers at the public school on a per student basis. Meaning the tax payers in the community are subsidizing these kids enrollment. Which is exactly what the D2 schools are doing with their scholarship players.

[smeagle1]

How many of this year teams are Open Zone? I think two are private schools CAK and Friendship, so of the other 10 how many would be OZ?

 

Four of the 6 state champions in D1 this year are either private or open zone and possibly more as I'm not sure about Wayne County or Henry County.

[Swipes]

Yes all privates students are tuition paying or on scholarship and they should be paying the same as all non-athlete students at the school. In the case of OOZ students like at Alcoa, Greeneville and Maryville these OOZ students pay much less than the actual cost to the tax payers at the public school on a per student basis. Meaning the tax payers in the community are subsidizing these kids enrollment. Which is exactly what the D2 schools are doing with their scholarship players.

You sure about that smeagle1? I know Greeneville's tuition is the difference in City and County taxes (City pays both city and county taxes). So an OOZ student's parents is paying the same as if he lived in the City of Greeneville tax wise. My parents did this since I was 6 for me and my older brother.

[smeagle1]

You sure about that smeagle1? I know Greeneville's tuition is the difference in City and County taxes (City pays both city and county taxes). So an OOZ student's parents is paying the same as if he lived in the City of Greeneville tax wise. My parents did this since I was 6 for me and my older brother.

 

Sorry Swipes looks like you're wrong.

 

This was taken from the Greeneville City Schools website.

 

 

TUITION RATES FOR NON-RESIDENTS

 

1st child 2nd child 3rd & each successive child

Greene County $1,025.00 $ 975.00 $ 925.00

Other Tennessee Counties $1,600.00 $ 1,550.00 $ 1,500.00

Out-of-State Full Per Pupil Cost

 

 

Looks like the only ones that have to pay full cost are your NC recruits.

 

 

No problem with open zone as long as they are paying the full amount to the tax payers.

Edited December 5, 2011 by smeagle1

[barb]

Sorry Swipes looks like you're wrong.

 

This was taken from the Greeneville City Schools website.

 

 

TUITION RATES FOR NON-RESIDENTS

 

1st child 2nd child 3rd & each successive child

Greene County $1,025.00 $ 975.00 $ 925.00

Other Tennessee Counties $1,600.00 $ 1,550.00 $ 1,500.00

Out-of-State Full Per Pupil Cost

 

 

Looks like the only ones that have to pay full cost are your NC recruits.

 

 

No problem with open zone as long as they are paying the full amount to the tax payers.

Don't they teach you boys to read on the mountain? He said the amount paid by county ooz is equivalent to the average amount of city property taxes paid. However, a city student may attend any county school, upon approval by the principal, tuition free.

[ColumbiaBlueNScarlet]

It's a complex problem.

 

D2

D1 privates

D1 publics

D1 publics with open zones...

 

I try to stay out of this arguement because the multiplier seems to make the competition about even IMO. All three of the D1 categories mentioned above have won state championships.

 

... but the discussion made me think of the following option:

 

D2 contains all private schools. Schools that offer financial assistance have a multiplier that is weighted based on the ratio of total assistance provided versus the total tuition paid to the school.

 

D1 contains all publics. Open zone publics have a multiplier that is weighted based on the ratio of tuition paying students versus total enrollement.

 

What do you think GVK? and everybody else?