KNOCK OUT!

[CHSGRAD99]

Ok folks, I coached against the PF head coach back when he was still coaching a traveling team from Knoxville. He ran a great ball club then minus the attitudes. No doubt he knows the game, but conduct here is lacking. Had I been the kid that was knocked out, warranted or not, I would be pressing charges if not beating him down. No matter how high the stakes these are still TEENAGE kids who need guidance. The actions here represent the coachs as well as the parents. There is no place for any of that in highschool athletics.

[uknowme]

If blue saw the incident, then he should have tossed the catcher for..................unsportsmanlike conduct?  Making a travesty of the game?  Where is dugout conduct among teammates addressed in the rulebook?  Lot's of umpires want to toss fans too.  Where does the umpires jurisdiction end?  Field of play?  Dugouts included?  Stands?  Parking lot?  I-40 East to Jackson?

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To answer your first question, yes. To answer your second question, yes again. To answer your third question, read my previous post (#33), it is very clear. As far as the umpires jurisdiction, it begins when the umpires arrive within the confines of the field. The dugouts are within the confines of the field. As far as the stands are concerned, they are not covered specifically in the rules, but an umpire can require a coach to control his fans. If a coach refuses, he can be ejected for not following an umpire's order. Forfeiture can also result if the situation warrants. As far as the parking lot is concerned, umpires do have the authority to "eject" coaches as long as they are within the vicinity of the field, normally considered in sight. The TSSAA has ruled and upheld such ejections in the past. I'm not sure what the I-40 East question is about, but if I encounter a problem on the road, an ejection and a small fine will be the least of one's worries.

[bball35]

2nd place is the first loser!

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and it also better than what your team got or any other team in AA in tennessee besides DL. its time you guys realize that pigeon forge is a good ball club and they deserve everything they achieved and had a wonderful season.

[bobcats56]

I don't think anyone is saying that PF didn't have an excellent club. We're not talking about the ability of the team, we're talking about the ridiculous incident between the catcher and second baseman and the obvious lack of discipline and good sense PF's head coach showed afterward. If I were that kid I would press charges against this punk. I want to congratulate the second baseman for not losing his cool after he came too like I probably would have.

[Game Time]

I don't think anyone is saying that PF didn't have an excellent club.  We're not talking about the ability of the team, we're talking about the ridiculous incident between the catcher and second baseman and the obvious lack of discipline and good sense PF's head coach showed afterward.  If I were that kid I would press charges against this punk.  I want to congratulate the second baseman for not losing his cool after he came too like I probably would have.

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Excellent point...and your right! The team appears to have had a great season and kudos to the 2nd basemen for exercising some control. But wait, it is over and it was a family matter...so what happens if the 2nd basemen sucker punches the catcher at the local Dairy Queen?

[ksgovols]

To answer your first question, yes.  To answer your second question, yes again.  To answer your third question, read my previous post (#33), it is very clear. As far as the umpires jurisdiction, it begins when the umpires arrive within the confines of the field.  The dugouts are within the confines of the field.  As far as the stands are concerned, they are not covered specifically in the rules, but an umpire can require a coach to control his fans.  If a coach refuses, he can be ejected for not following an umpire's order.  Forfeiture can also result if the situation warrants.  As far as the parking lot is concerned, umpires do have the authority to "eject" coaches as long as they are within the vicinity of the field, normally considered in sight.  The TSSAA has ruled and upheld such ejections in the past.  I'm not sure what the I-40 East question is about, but if I encounter a problem on the road, an ejection and a small fine will be the least of one's worries.

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I don't have a 2005 NFHS Rulebook handy, but this is from the 2004 version:

 

10.1.2- Umpire jurisdiction begins upon the umpires arriving at the field (within the confines of the field) and ends when the umpires leave the playing field at the conclusion of the game.

 

By rule the umpires jurisdiction is confined to the field of play. That will not include the stands, parking lot or I-40 East.

 

1.2.4- It is recommended that when the dugout area is extended, for any reason, it shall be extended toward the outfield on a line parallel to the foul line. The extension of the dugout area shall be equally applied to both teams.

 

This reference and Diagram 1 make reference to the dugout area. Rule 10.2.3c indicates that an umpire may restrict a coach or player to the dugout area. The implication is that the dugout is within the field of play and so within the umpire's jurisdiction.

 

10.2.3f- (Umpire's duties) Penalize for rule infractions, such as a balk, interference, baserunning infractions, delay, unwarranted disputing of decision, or unsportsmanlike conduct.

 

I couldn't find a 'travesty of the game' ruling, although it is included in some youth league rulebooks such as Little League.

 

10.2.3h- (Umpire's duties) Forfeit the game for prescribed infractions by spectators, coaches, players or attendants.

 

This is the most powerful tool an umpire has in my opinion and negates the need for jurisdiction all the way to Jackson. It can be used against fans when the coach can't get them under control and it can be used against players who continually violate the rules after being warned. Section 4.4 defines all of the prescribed infractions under which a game may be forfeited.

 

3.3.3- A coach who is ejected shall leave the vicinity of the playing area immediately and is prohibited from further contact, direct or indirect, with the team during the remainder of the game. He may return when requested to attend to an ill or injured player.

 

This is admittedly 'gray', but if a coach is ejected from within sight of the playing field, how is he summoned to attend to an injured player? This is a vague rule at best. Most high school teams have an assistant coach to assume the manager's duties I suppose, but I know my high school team did not. My guess is that the intent is for the ejected coach not to 'coach' from wherever he might be once ejected. A pressbox or the bus could be within sight of the field, but would be appropriate if the coach could not communicate with his players.

 

10.2.3k- (Umpire's duties) Not allow a player who has been rendered unconscious during a game to resume playing that day without written authorization from a physician.

 

Haven't seen where that was done either.

 

I agree that the umpire should have taken some action after reading through the rulebook. My opinion is that after the kid knocked out his teammate, blue should have put both teams in their respective dugouts until order was restored and issued a warning to each team concerning conduct on the field of play. Next, the second baseman should have been removed from the game if he was indeed rendered unconscious until a physician cleared him to play in writing. The catcher could possibly be ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct. I think that's a judgement call. Calling it on a teammate is a wrinkle. Kind of like calling 'roughing the passer' when your tailback runs over your quarterback on a busted play.

Edited May 31, 2005 by ksgovols

[Guest msmom]

Two additional thoughts. What happens the next time this catcher has an anger issue and someone is hurt badly? No one has him any favors by allowing him to keep behaving in an aggressive manner. It doesn't matter what anyone said to him to "provoke" him. He doesn't seem to be able to control himself. Also, it is my understanding that this incident falls under state and federal guidelines as any violent incident that occurs at a school game is considered to have happened on school property, on school time.

[uknowme]

10.1.2- Umpire jurisdiction begins upon the umpires arriving at the field (within the confines of the field) and ends when the umpires leave the playing field at the conclusion of the game.

 

By rule the umpires jurisdiction is confined to the field of play. That will not include the stands, parking lot or I-40 East.

Many people misinterpret this rule. The rule does not say that the umpires jurisdiction is limited to the confines of the field. It specifically states that jurisdiction begins when they arrive with the confines of the field. It is not a matter of location but that of time. If jurisdiction does not extend to the stands, how do you explain that forteiture can result from actions of spectators. Furthermore, if it is only limited to the confines of the field, an ejected coach could stand outside the fence and do whatever he pleases. He is outside the fence and that of the confines of the field. Also, the "within sight" comment was not meant as the distance a coach must be removed if ejected, the comment was to state the rule of thumb the state has used for umpire jurisdiction. For instance, an umpire is approched by a coach in the parking lot after a game in an unsportsmanlike manner, the state has upheld fines and suspensions resulting from such encounters. Finally, the point you make about a player being rendered unconscious is a very good point. The rule is clear in this incident.

[Mac Attack]

I read the post from the second baseman and if this particular kid has already gotten into trouble for this type of inncident whats to say this kid next time has an episode where he takes a ball bat to someone or worse ? I put more fault on the coach than the player his mind wasn't in the best intrest in those players he was only thinking about winning for himself.

[auburn08]

nothing more needs to be said on this subject really. what should be more important is what happened on the field not in the dugout or what the fans said. Congrats to all on a great season and see you next year

Edited June 1, 2005 by auburn08

[wpasi]

What grade is this kid in?

[uknowme]

yeah, apparently I had to have water thrown on me to wake me up. I didn't even know that till about 2 days ago. I actually played pretty well for being temporarly unconcious, I think I went like 3-5 or something like that.

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I hate to hear anything like this happening. I'm happy for you and your team's accomplishments. Are you back next year? If so, good luck next season.