BA vs. TSSAA Ruling In

[jek]

This case is still far from over. There are probably appeals still to come.

 

What ultimately Brentwood Academy wants is to recruit athletes (Barfield said this in the Tennessean article by making the tuba player analogy) and they want to compete against public schools (their antitrust agument) for a state championship. No merit system or multiplier can equalize this inequity. If they get their way, then high schools will be competing for athletes from middle schools, just like colleges do when they recruit high school kids and state championships by public schools will become rare.

 

The Sixth Circuit in Cincinnati ruled against Brentwood Academy years ago and they appealed to the Supreme Court. I would suspect the same thing will be done by TSSAA. If high schools can recruit, this would have far-reaching implications on every state, thus, it would probably be something the Supreme Court would ultimately decide on. We all need to remember, this is not about BA vs. TSSAA, it is about anti-trust, due-process, education, high school recruiting, and public/private organizations coexsiting. It is an argument about the laws of this land. The actual participants in the Scopes Monkey Trail and Roe vs. Wade, for instance are minor, if not forgotten players, but the laws that came out of courts affected everyone in this nation -- same thing holds true here.

 

So, we are probably looking at a few more years before a final settlement will be made. By the time this case gets settled, there will be a new generation of posters on coacht.com to discuss it -- us current posters will riding into the sunset. In the history of this case, both sides have won, and both have lost. It just so happens that Brentwood Academy wins this latest volley.

 

And, if Brentwood Academy ultimately wins here, they will have won the battle, but lost the war, because the establishment of a new athletic organization that is made up of only public schools is a certainity, and BA would be left with nobody to play but other private schools. Do you think that if BA recruits the best players from Beech, Franklin, Brentwood, etc, that those schools will schedule BA?

 

Also, if BA ultimately wins and can recruit, then other private schools will step up their recruiting - and who do you think would win the recruiting battle if Ensworth, MBA and BA all want the same student?

 

 

You are absolutely missing the point and have mischaracterized the statement in the article. BA and the other DII schools want to attract the best students and communicate with those students the merits of a private school education. Just because the Tuba player can also kick a football should not limit the ability of a school to offer need based financial aid.

 

The issue is one of undue influence or unnecessary focus on athletics. No student should be solicited only on the merits of their athletic achievements.

 

If a school is only soliciting a student for that purpose, then the offender should be sanctioned. The TSSAA has not been able to remotely make that case against BA or other DII schools.

 

You are correct in your statement that this may ultimately be an anti-trust question. The Appeals Judge made it quite clear that the TSSAA Public/Private separation may have resulted in the restriction of competition. It will be very

difficult for the public schools to form an organization that is not considered a "state agent". Based on what I read from the Appeals Court decision, a forced Public/Private split may not be allowed to continue. In addition, it is going to be very difficult for the TSSAA to continue to fight this battle given the mounting legal bills.

[yellowdog]

 

 

You are correct in your statement that this may ultimately be an anti-trust question. The Appeals Judge made it quite clear that the TSSAA Public/Private separation may have resulted in the restriction of competition. It will be very

difficult for the public schools to form an organization that is not considered a "state agent". Based on what I read from the Appeals Court decision, a forced Public/Private split may not be allowed to continue. In addition, it is going to be very difficult for the TSSAA to continue to fight this battle given the mounting legal bills.

 

Point 1

 

How did the TSSAA Public/Private separation result in the restriction of competition? DII schools can play any school in the state whether or not they are DI or DII. Likewise, a public school can play in DII if they chose to do so. The only thing they can't do is play for a DI state championship. But neither can a Class AAA school play for a Class A championship. What is the difference? Classification (enrollment) causes this. If a DII school chooses not to give financial aid, they can play in DI. I see the DI/DII split, not as a restriction of competition, but rather a simple classification issue. Travel issues come up as a difference between DI and DII and the DII proponents say this is a problem. Well, yes this can be, but you need to remember that regular season requirements are set by a DII committee, made up of DII schools. They are the ones who set the schedules. If they so chose, they could chose to play no inter-league DII games, but just meet in state and regional tournaments.

 

Look at the differences between the DII - Super-Seven and DI schools in football. How do you expect large DI schools to compete with DII schools when most DII schools have a coach who makes over $100,000 a year and does not teach a class, give as much financial aid as the Student Service for Financial Aid (SSS) in Princeton, NJ allows, and have sophisticated game film requirements between them. No reasonable person can expect a level playing field to exists with these differences.

 

Point 2

 

"It will be very difficult for the public schools to form an organization that is not considered a "state agent".

 

If a new association was created just for public schools, what right does a private school have to be a member of that association? How does "state actor" play a part of that? If Franklin, Brentwood, Riverdale, Blackman, Oakland, Ravenwood and Columbia chose to start a Lacross league, can Brentwood Academy go to court to become a member of that league? What is the difference if those school broke away from TSSAA and played all sports against each other? TSSAA is a volunteer organization and any school can drop out if they want.

Edited March 20, 2006 by yellowdog

[jek]

Point 1

 

How did the TSSAA Public/Private separation result in the restriction of competition? DII schools can play any school in the state whether or not they are DI or DII. Likewise, a public school can play in DII if they chose to do so. The only thing they can't do is play for a DI state championship. But neither can a Class AAA school play for a Class A championship. What is the difference? Classification (enrollment) causes this. If a DII school chooses not to give financial aid, they can play in DI. I see the DI/DII split, not as a restriction of competition, but rather a simple classification issue. Travel issues come up as a difference between DI and DII and the DII proponents say this is a problem. Well, yes this can be, but you need to remember that regular season requirements are set by a DII committee, made up of DII schools. They are the ones who set the schedules. If they so chose, they could chose to play no inter-league DII games, but just meet in state and regional tournaments.

 

Look at the differences between the DII - Super-Seven and DI schools in football. How do you expect large DI schools to compete with DII schools when most DII schools have a coach who makes over $100,000 a year and does not teach a class, give as much financial aid as the Student Service for Financial Aid (SSS) in Princeton, NJ allows, and have sophisticated game film requirements between them. No reasonable person can expect a level playing field to exists with these differences.

 

Point 2

 

"It will be very difficult for the public schools to form an organization that is not considered a "state agent".

 

If a new association was created just for public schools, what right does a private school have to be a member of that association? How does "state actor" play a part of that? If Franklin, Brentwood, Riverdale, Blackman, Oakland, Ravenwood and Columbia chose to start a Lacross league, can Brentwood Academy go to court to become a member of that league? What is the difference if those school broke away from TSSAA and played all sports against each other? TSSAA is a volunteer organization and any school can drop out if they want.

 

I understand your points and don't necessarily disagree (in theory). For

the record, I am not necessarily opposed to a full Public/Private split. My

personal opinion is that the Privates in metropolitan areas would grow much

stronger and the Publics weaker. The rural Privates would most likely suffer.

 

Read the full opinion by the Appeals Court. My response to your original

post comes from my reading of her opinion. You and I can discuss the

merits of Public versus Private and whether a level playing field exists.

However, if the courts decide that a Public/Private split is an anti-trust

violation, then our argument is rendered meaningless. It would certainly

appear that the Appeals Court was suggesting that at a real possibility.

[Antwan]

I understand your points and don't necessarily disagree (in theory). For

the record, I am not necessarily opposed to a full Public/Private split. My

personal opinion is that the Privates in metropolitan areas would grow much

stronger and the Publics weaker.

The rural Privates would most likely suffer

.

 

Read the full opinion by the Appeals Court. My response to your original

post comes from my reading of her opinion. You and I can discuss the

merits of Public versus Private and whether a level playing field exists.

However, if the courts decide that a Public/Private split is an anti-trust

violation, then our argument is rendered meaningless. It would certainly

appear that the Appeals Court was suggesting that at a real possibility.

 

Just curious...how many rural private schools exist in Tennessee?

[yellowdog]

I understand your points and don't necessarily disagree (in theory). For

the record, I am not necessarily opposed to a full Public/Private split. My

personal opinion is that the Privates in metropolitan areas would grow much

stronger and the Publics weaker. The rural Privates would most likely suffer.

 

Read the full opinion by the Appeals Court. My response to your original

post comes from my reading of her opinion. You and I can discuss the

merits of Public versus Private and whether a level playing field exists.

However, if the courts decide that a Public/Private split is an anti-trust

violation, then our argument is rendered meaningless. It would certainly

appear that the Appeals Court was suggesting that at a real possibility.

 

I have read the opinon and agree that our personal feelings are meaningless in this whole matter. I suspect the TSSAA will appeal to the whole 6th circuit court. A three judge panel (Gibbons, Rogers, and Bell) made the ruling. What the news people are not saying is that that vote was 2-1 for BA, with Rogers dissenting. Bell is no longer on Sixth circuit court (according to their website). So the vote now is 1-1. Of the 37 page finding, 11 pages are by the dissenting judge. If TSSAA appeals, then a majority of the 15 or so judges at the Sixth Circuit have to vote as to whether the case will be heard by the whole sixth circuit court. And even if they turn it down -- the case can be appealed to Supreme Court. In the first trip to Supreme Court, I believe the Sixth Circuit voted 14-1 against BA, but they still appealed to the Highest court and they agreed to hear it.

 

Judge Rogers arguments were as compelling to me as Gibbons. A BA person would find Gibbons arguments more compelling I guess.

 

I think we're still a long way from this thing being completed.

[jek]

I have read the opinon and agree that our personal feelings are meaningless in this whole matter. I suspect the TSSAA will appeal to the whole 6th circuit court. A three judge panel (Gibbons, Rogers, and Bell) made the ruling. What the news people are not saying is that that vote was 2-1 for BA, with Rogers dissenting. Bell is no longer on Sixth circuit court (according to their website). So the vote now is 1-1. Of the 37 page finding, 11 pages are by the dissenting judge. If TSSAA appeals, then a majority of the 15 or so judges at the Sixth Circuit have to vote as to whether the case will be heard by the whole sixth circuit court. And even if they turn it down -- the case can be appealed to Supreme Court. In the first trip to Supreme Court, I believe the Sixth Circuit voted 14-1 against BA, but they still appealed to the Highest court and they agreed to hear it.

 

Judge Rogers arguments were as compelling to me as Gibbons. A BA person would find Gibbons arguments more compelling I guess.

 

I think we're still a long way from this thing being completed.

 

 

TSSAA may very well ask the full court to hear the appeal. My guess

is that the earlier Supreme Court ruling will weigh heavily in their decision

process.

 

I have read the dissenting opinion as well and we definitely disagree on the

which side has the most compelling argument. Regardless, the sheer weight of TSSAA's legal bills as well as their very real exposure to the liability for BA's legal fees may force the TSSAA to cut their losses and negotiate a reasonable settlement.

[itzme]

TSSAA may very well ask the full court to hear the appeal. My guess

is that the earlier Supreme Court ruling will weigh heavily in their decision

process.

 

I have read the dissenting opinion as well and we definitely disagree on the

which side has the most compelling argument. Regardless, the sheer weight of TSSAA's legal bills as well as their very real exposure to the liability for BA's legal fees may force the TSSAA to cut their losses and negotiate a reasonable settlement.

If you read the entire ruling, then you have read the basic facts of the original case. Much of what has gone on since the original appeal is legal gobbledy-gook.

 

Having read the original facts of the case, do you agree with the punishment that was imposed? Do you really and truly want TSSAA to further appeal this? What positive outcome could possibly come out of that?

[jek]

If you read the entire ruling, then you have read the basic facts of the original case. Much of what has gone on since the original appeal is legal gobbledy-gook.

 

Having read the original facts of the case, do you agree with the punishment that was imposed? Do you really and truly want TSSAA to further appeal this? What positive outcome could possibly come out of that?

 

 

Huh? I think you misreading my posts. I don't think the TSSAA

case has merit and believe that pursuit of appeals is fruitless for

both legal and financial reasons.

[Grace Golden Eagles]

All the the 8th graders had signed enrollment contracts for their freshman

year. The letters were sent to make them aware of spring football practice

(as long as they were not involved in current school activities). The

follow up calls by Coach Flatt to the parents was to clarify that attendance

was not mandatory.

 

There is nothing wrong with that.

[jek]

.

 

Just curious...how many rural private schools exist in Tennessee?

 

 

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to private

schools outside the densely populated areas of Nashville, Knoxville,

Memphis and Chattanooga.

[BDURHAM]

Bighurt, please define "pay."

 

There is no question that athletes have been recruited by private secondary schools in Tennessee, and their tuition was not paid by their families.

 

This was not an issue in this lawsuit. One can speculate as to the many reasons this issue has not gone to court.

 

But an intelligent person cannot question that tuition has been paid for athletes at private schools.

 

Having said that, that is not the issue in the lawsuit.

 

I will not name names. It would take about $100,000 in a legal fund to state a name, and prove it in court.

 

 

I am so tired of your misformation.

 

1. Name one athlete at any school ever who was paid to come to a school and play sports.

 

2. Name the 6 or 7 BA players in a single year who signed D1 scholarships.

 

3. The Shelbyville girls play with whoever shows up. Maryville, Riverdale and Alcoa footbal teams play with whoever shows up. I am not accusing these programs of illegal recruiting but they have all had athletes transfer to their schools. Get me a break!

[BDURHAM]

They are not an athletic powerhouse, but Webb School in Bell Buckle is a rural private school.

 

Sewanee has a rural private secondary school, St. Andrew's.

 

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to private

schools outside the densely populated areas of Nashville, Knoxville,

Memphis and Chattanooga.