2 Class in all DII Sports to be proposed at August B of C

[RedUp]

I understand that the Division II committee will propose to the August Board of Control meeting that all DII "team sports", (football, basketball, baseball, softball, volleyball and soccer) be placed into 2 classes based purely on enrollment. Schools may move up, but may not move down.

 

This means that there will be 2 state champions crowned in each sport in DII.

 

It will be very tough on the lower end enrollment schools in football in both classes, but it helps all the other sports.

 

This may open the gates for current DI privates to move to DII, if the whole landscape of TSSAA has not shifted dramatically as a result of the court decisions and the TSSAA response.

[WesVLT]

I understand that the Division II committee will propose to the August Board of Control meeting that all DII "team sports", (football, basketball, baseball, softball, volleyball and soccer) be placed into 2 classes based purely on enrollment. Schools may move up, but may not move down.

 

This means that there will be 2 state champions crowned in each sport in DII.

 

It will be very tough on the lower end enrollment schools in football in both classes, but it helps all the other sports.

 

This may open the gates for current DI privates to move to DII, if the whole landscape of TSSAA has not shifted dramatically as a result of the court decisions and the TSSAA response.

I think there's a decent chance the proposal will pass. The smaller schools would love to have a shot at state titles in non-football sports, and the TSSAA needs to adjust the football classifications since DII-AA is slated to have only five teams in a few years. Also, because DII schools are not represented among the member schools of the Board of Control, it would be patently unfair for the board to reject a well-reasoned proposal from the DII committee.

 

I do not, however, think the change will be enough to convince any (or many) DI privates to move to DII...the private schools still playing in DI have larger factors keeping them there, such as lower traveling expenses, the comfort of the status quo, and traditional rivalries. If anyone moves to DII, it will be because stronger factors are in play.

Edited July 22, 2006 by WesVols

[Indian]

The more teams in Division II, the better the travel would be. You can't look at the Division II-AAA football and think every other class would be like that, especially if all were in. What traditional rivalries would be lost, by the way. If they were all in, there would be enough teams for three classes. Maybe it wouldn't be strictly with an even number in each class, but up to 200 in A, 201-500 in AA and above that, plus those moving up like BA, in AAA.

 

Lighthouse Christian 44

Elliston Baptist 63

David Brainerd 88

Zion Christian 104

Temple 106

Rossville Christian 125

Memphis Catholic 135

Mt Juliet Christian 135

Knoxville Grace 138

Clarksville Academy 142

King’s Academy 140

Tipton Rosemark 160

Silverdale Academy 165

MTCS 171

Columbia Academy 174

Chattanooga Grace 181

Nashville Christian 182

Bishop Byrne 186

Sewanee 194

 

St George’s 212

Trinity Christian 214

Friendship Christian 217

FACS 224

Fayette Academy 233

Jackson Christian 251

Ezell Harding 279

Franklin Road Academy 279

SBEC 280

Davidson Academy 281

Donelson Christian 286

CPA 310

Boyd-Buchanan 347

BGA 356

Ensworth 370

CAK 373

USJ 378

Harding Academy 396

Brentwood Academy 446

Knoxville Webb 488

 

ECS 515

Lipscomb 526

Knoxville Catholic 548

Notre Dame 561

Briarcrest 612

PJP2 651

Baylor 748

St Benedict 776

MUS 862

MBA 924

Father Ryan 926

McCallie 1250

Christian Brothers 1700

 

Lipscomb, Catholic, Webb (which would be borderline) should be able to compete, since Briarcrest at 612 has been able to do that.

 

 

This grouping of current Division II schools, in a two-class system, doesn't look nearly as appealing, looking at it from the small schools' view and looking at the matchups. To get it even the cutoff would need to be about 350, but I think the likes of BGA and Harding could compete with the larger schools (and the same sized BA).

 

Lighthouse Christian 44

Elliston Baptist 63

David Brainerd 88

Memphis Catholic 135

King’s Academy 140

Tipton-Rosemark 160

Bishop Byrne 186

Sewanee 194

St George’s 212

Trinity Christian 214

FACS 224

Fayette Academy 233

SBEC 280

Davidson Academy 281

BGA 356

Ensworth 370

Harding Academy 396

Brentwood Academy 446

Knoxville Webb 488

ECS 515

Briarcrest 612

PJP2 651

Baylor 748

St Benedict 776

MUS 862

MBA 924

Father Ryan 926

McCallie 1250

Christian Brothers 1700

Edited July 23, 2006 by Indian

[Indian]

Here are for other sports besides football:

 

With all schools in, cut off would be at about 35 schools to make it even, or it could go by around 400 up in AA, less in A. Schools like Goodpasture could certainly compete in some sports. I don't see a reason why all the private schools, current Division I and II both, wouldn't like this setup. The Chattanooga area could have David Brainerd, Temple, Silverdale, Grace, Boyd-Buchanan in A. No more games with teams like Copper Basin and Whitwell, which neither the private schools or those publics care about playing. An East division could have Chattanooga Christian, Webb, Catholic, Notre Dame, Baylor, GPS/McCallie in AA. CCS though at 405, could compete, they moved up to AA and won the girls basketball district, had three seniors sign small college scholarships in that sport, have been strong in boys basketball and baseball for a while and had some good young softball players, one of the best freshman pitchers around. If Webb and Catholic didn't want four trips to Chattanooga a season, they could travel twice one year, twice the next year, and just host two a year.

 

Walker Academy 26

Lighthouse Christian 44

J Frank White 51

Elliston Baptist 63

Boyd Christian 64

College Heights 73

David Brainerd 88

Zion Christian 104

Temple 106

Rossville Christian 125

Memphis Catholic 135

Mt Juliet Christian 135

Knoxville Grace 138

Clarksville Academy 142

King’s Academy 140

Tipton Rosemark 160

Silverdale Academy 165

MTCS 171

Columbia Academy 174

Bell Buckle Webb 175

Chattanooga Grace 181

Nashville Christian 182

Bishop Byrne 186

Sewanee 194

Lasaunne 206

St George’s 212

Trinity Christian 214

Friendship Christian 217

FACS 224

Fayette Academy 233

Jackson Christian 251

Ezell Harding 279

Franklin Road Academy 279

SBEC 280

Davidson Academy 281

Donelson Christian 286

CPA 310

Immaculate Conception 324

Boyd-Buchanan 347

BGA 356

Goodpasture 360

Nashville University School 361

Ensworth 370

CAK 373

USJ 378

East Literature 380

Harding Academy 396

Chattanooga Christian 405

Hutchison 438

Brentwood Academy 446

St Cecilia’s 466

St Mary’s 468

Knoxville Webb 488

ECS 515

Lipscomb 526

Knoxville Catholic 548

Notre Dame 561

Briarcrest 612

PJP2 651

St Agnes 662

Baylor 748

Harpeth Hall 754

St Benedict 776

GPS 852

MUS 862

MBA 924

Father Ryan 926

McCallie 1250

Christian Brothers 1700

 

With just current Division II schools, each class could have about 25, or cutoff could be about 300. This would certainly be much better than the current setup, for the smaller schools who have no chance against BA, McCallie, etc:

 

Walker Academy 26

Lighthouse Christian 44

J Frank White 51

Elliston Baptist 63

Boyd Christian 64

College Heights 73

David Brainerd 88

Zion Christian 104

Rossville Christian 125

Memphis Catholic 135

Mt Juliet Christian 135

Knoxville Grace 138

Clarksville Academy 142

King’s Academy 140

Tipton Rosemark 160

MTCS 171

Columbia Academy 174

Nashville Christian 182

Lasaunne 206

St George’s 212

Trinity Christian 214

FACS 224

SBEC 280

Davidson Academy 281

Immaculate Conception 324

BGA 356

Nashville University School 361

Ensworth 370

Harding Academy 396

Hutchison 438

Brentwood Academy 446

St Cecilia’s 466

St Mary’s 468

Knoxville Webb 488

ECS 515

Briarcrest 612

PJP2 651

St Agnes 662

Baylor 748

Harpeth Hall 754

St Benedict 776

GPS 852

MUS 862

MBA 924

Father Ryan 926

McCallie 1250

Christian Brothers 1700

Edited July 23, 2006 by Indian

[silverpie]

Also, because DII schools are not represented among the member schools of the Board of Control, it would be patently unfair for the board to reject a well-reasoned proposal from the DII committee.

 

That's never stopped them before.

[FadePattern]

I think it would be great to see a Lipscomb/MBA game, two great schools with great tradition finally meet in football. Why have these two not played before?

[WesVLT]

If they were all in, there would be enough teams for three classes.

Every DI private wouldn't make the switch; in fact, most probably wouldn't. The reasons why they wouldn't switch are numerous, and maybe a couple of the ones I listed aren't the biggest ones (though I do think travel is a factor). You'd have to ask each school why it has chosen to stay in DI to this point -- I don't think they'd give you many factors that wouldn't be the same today, even with a revamped DII.

[Indian]

What would some of those numerous factors be, other than travel, which would be better as more teams joined? Fear of playing McCallie, MBA or BA? That's what classes within the division would solve and everyone except the larger schools would avoid them. I still can't think of any traditional rivalries that would be lost, and there are many natural rivalries that would likely be gained-Lipscomb and MBA was mentioned. Even if the teams were no longer in the same division they could still play non-region, say Knoxville Catholic wanted to play Austin-East, just an example. I've also read on here numerous times the private schools get better gates when playing other private schools, wouldn't this be another reason?

[rollredroll]

I think it would be great to see a Lipscomb/MBA game, two great schools with great tradition finally meet in football. Why have these two not played before?

 

Tommy Owen (MBA coach for all but 6 years from '53 to '92) was on record as being generally against playing lower classification schools, particularly private ones. Yes, MBA did play some games against BGA during his tenure (not many), but the MBA-BGA series is one that dates back to the early 20th century, and those games may have been out of respect for the longstanding rivalry (one in which BGA actually held its own). That stance from Owen is why one will not see any games versus the likes of DLHS, FRA, EHCS, DCA, etc. on MBA's historical schedules. MBA and BA didn't even play each other in the regular season until 1997, four years after Owen's death (and, of course, that inaugural regular season matchup was as a result of the split).

Edited July 24, 2006 by rollredroll

[WesVLT]

What would some of those numerous factors be, other than travel, which would be better as more teams joined? Fear of playing McCallie, MBA or BA? That's what classes within the division would solve and everyone except the larger schools would avoid them. I still can't think of any traditional rivalries that would be lost, and there are many natural rivalries that would likely be gained-Lipscomb and MBA was mentioned. Even if the teams were no longer in the same division they could still play non-region, say Knoxville Catholic wanted to play Austin-East, just an example. I've also read on here numerous times the private schools get better gates when playing other private schools, wouldn't this be another reason?

You give good reasons for them to want to switch, just like I gave good reasons why they might not want to. My contention remains that the DI privates have not found good enough reasons to switch yet, and the reorganization of DII, while healthy, will not serve as a compelling enough reason for them to make the move. If they haven't switched yet, it'll take something awfully inviting -- or a TSSAA mandate -- to make them change now.

 

Would I love to see more schools in Division II? Absolutely. But I don't exactly think the upcoming changes will create a deluge.

[uncfan13]

Here are for other sports besides football:

 

With all schools in, cut off would be at about 35 schools to make it even, or it could go by around 400 up in AA, less in A. Schools like Goodpasture could certainly compete in some sports. I don't see a reason why all the private schools, current Division I and II both, wouldn't like this setup. The Chattanooga area could have David Brainerd, Temple, Silverdale, Grace, Boyd-Buchanan in A. No more games with teams like Copper Basin and Whitwell, which neither the private schools or those publics care about playing. An East division could have Chattanooga Christian, Webb, Catholic, Notre Dame, Baylor, GPS/McCallie in AA. CCS though at 405, could compete, they moved up to AA and won the girls basketball district, had three seniors sign small college scholarships in that sport, have been strong in boys basketball and baseball for a while and had some good young softball players, one of the best freshman pitchers around. If Webb and Catholic didn't want four trips to Chattanooga a season, they could travel twice one year, twice the next year, and just host two a year.

 

Walker Academy 26

Lighthouse Christian 44

J Frank White 51

Elliston Baptist 63

Boyd Christian 64

College Heights 73

David Brainerd 88

Zion Christian 104

Temple 106

Rossville Christian 125

Memphis Catholic 135

Mt Juliet Christian 135

Knoxville Grace 138

Clarksville Academy 142

King’s Academy 140

Tipton Rosemark 160

Silverdale Academy 165

MTCS 171

Columbia Academy 174

Bell Buckle Webb 175

Chattanooga Grace 181

Nashville Christian 182

Bishop Byrne 186

Sewanee 194

Lasaunne 206

St George’s 212

Trinity Christian 214

Friendship Christian 217

FACS 224

Fayette Academy 233

Jackson Christian 251

Ezell Harding 279

Franklin Road Academy 279

SBEC 280

Davidson Academy 281

Donelson Christian 286

CPA 310

Immaculate Conception 324

Boyd-Buchanan 347

BGA 356

Goodpasture 360

Nashville University School 361

Ensworth 370

CAK 373

USJ 378

East Literature 380

Harding Academy 396

Chattanooga Christian 405

Hutchison 438

Brentwood Academy 446

St Cecilia’s 466

St Mary’s 468

Knoxville Webb 488

ECS 515

Lipscomb 526

Knoxville Catholic 548

Notre Dame 561

Briarcrest 612

PJP2 651

St Agnes 662

Baylor 748

Harpeth Hall 754

St Benedict 776

GPS 852

MUS 862

MBA 924

Father Ryan 926

McCallie 1250

Christian Brothers 1700

 

With just current Division II schools, each class could have about 25, or cutoff could be about 300. This would certainly be much better than the current setup, for the smaller schools who have no chance against BA, McCallie, etc:

 

Walker Academy 26

Lighthouse Christian 44

J Frank White 51

Elliston Baptist 63

Boyd Christian 64

College Heights 73

David Brainerd 88

Zion Christian 104

Rossville Christian 125

Memphis Catholic 135

Mt Juliet Christian 135

Knoxville Grace 138

Clarksville Academy 142

King’s Academy 140

Tipton Rosemark 160

MTCS 171

Columbia Academy 174

Nashville Christian 182

Lasaunne 206

St George’s 212

Trinity Christian 214

FACS 224

SBEC 280

Davidson Academy 281

Immaculate Conception 324

BGA 356

Nashville University School 361

Ensworth 370

Harding Academy 396

Hutchison 438

Brentwood Academy 446

St Cecilia’s 466

St Mary’s 468

Knoxville Webb 488

ECS 515

Briarcrest 612

PJP2 651

St Agnes 662

Baylor 748

Harpeth Hall 754

St Benedict 776

GPS 852

MUS 862

MBA 924

Father Ryan 926

McCallie 1250

Christian Brothers 1700

 

You really can't add McCallie and GPS's attendance together. They are completely separate schools - different boards of trustees, unrelated administrations, separate charters, etc. There's no basis to add them together other than three McCallie brothers founded McCallie 102 years ago and a McCallie sister along with two of her friends founded GPS 100 years ago.

Edited July 24, 2006 by uncfan13

[cbg]

I don't see any D1 schools going into D2AAA due to the amount of travel required and the money that it takes to travel. In fact I could see some D2AAA schools making the change to D1AAAA or D1AAAAA the same as Knoxville Catholic and Notre Dame did when given the opportunity. As the money starts to flow, I don't see Christian Brothers, Briarcrest, Father Ryan or Pope John Paul II being able to keep up with the spending that schools like Baylor, McCallie, MUS, Ensworth, MBA & Brentwood Academy are throwing into athletics. I could see some of these schools leaving the TSSAA for the old "MidSouth Prep School League" like many of the military academies and prep schools around the Southeast participated in during the 1950's-1970's.