Division II Football restructuring?

[MHubbuch]

Fist of all, your solution separating private and public has already destroyed some great natural rivalries. Second many private schools regularly play up in class to give their teams more challenge...we didn't need the TSSAA and the public schools to accomplish this. Third, if you are correct about the publics being loaded in talent (and they should have much more talent that many of the private schools, especially the DI schools that do not recruit and offer athletic related financial support)....then why in Heaven's name do you need a multiplier or a rule eliminating privates from playing publics. Actually I would rather see our DI privates all move to private vs private football if it would stop the publics from complaining. We could handle the travel of the football team and the longer trips for 2 or 3 travel games a year, but the killer is putting that type of travel requirement on our track, soccer, baseball, softball, golf teams etc. In most cases we're already playing up in these categories but eliminating private public play in these sports only puts unreasonable costs and travel risks on all of the kids in the state. Public and Private! Public schools have talent and depth...it shouldn't take a multiplier to bring them to a competitive level....just desire and effort....something they will need to develop to be successful in life ....out of public school! Maybe the TSSAA will make sure the public shool grads get a 1.8 salary multiplier when they graduate too!! Maybe not?

 

What Natural Rivalries were destroyed. NONE, Hillwood and the AD for Metro schools(Scott Burnett) ended most of the rivalries. He does not want any Metro School to play Private schools. As for Other places. Just because you have a Private School league does not mean you do not play a Public School.

 

Private Schools have elected not to play some Public Schools for they do not bring fans to the games. Now in no means am I saying that it happens at all games or schools. Just as a whole, in Nashville Most Metro Schools do not bring enough fans to watch games so why play them.

Edited October 3, 2006 by MHubbuch

[supersteve17]

The results prove that it isn't a fair opportunity. There are exceptions but not many, especially when you're talking about around 80 public schools in 1A and 2A. There's Alcoa, Milan, S Pitt, Tyner, maybe a couple more consistently and S Pitt has had some off years this decade though they're strong again right now. Just think how slanted things would be if Brentwood Academy, Baylor, others played in Division I, and didn't move up in class. Even with a partial split and a mulitiplier, it's still obvious there's an overall competition problem. And I'm still waiting on anyone, after years, to tell me what the problem would be with a Division II featuring all the state's privates. Don't give me travel, with all of them in it you could have regions in sections all over the state, and you have public schools like Grundy (travels to the Cleveland-Athens area in football) going further than any or most would be going. Someone said something about Red Bank-McCallie and how good that would be, what about FCS against maybe a Temple in a 1A final, Goodpasture vs Catholic in a 2A final and a rematch of BA-McCallie in 3A. I also think-with all privates in one division-some small privates not in the TSSAA right now would consider joining. Some of those could have football teams and teams like David Brainerd, Sewanee, would have more equal opponents. I'm sure they didn't want to be in a one-class basketball group with teams like Brentwood Academy, but the more than joined, the better the chance for even a three-class system.

 

A few observations. First, results do not always prove or disprove a fair opportunity existed or didn't exist. Every year there are games in many different sports that are lost and later, officials admit mistakes were made in the interpretation or administration of a rule. Those results, unfairly arrived at, are usually not overturned.

 

Second, travel problems would exist, maybe even more than they do now. Your own example (Grundy County) indicates that a complete split would create or exasperate travel problems even for public schools! But then, some schools, like Grundy, Copper Basin and many others, view the necessity of travel as a consequence of location. Private schools would have more travel, but so would some public schools.

 

Third, nothing would be wrong, in my mind, with a FCS/Temple matchup in Class A. In fact, that type of matchup is what you had for at least the last three years before the multiplier -- Boyd-Buchanan vs CPA and BBS vs. DCA twice. That didn't really please everyone then, why would it now?

 

I've said this before, but "unfair" to me means if you get to play with eleven and I have to play with ten, that's unfair. If I can play with twenty year olds and you have to play with eighteen year olds, that is unfair. If you can have five downs to make a first down and I only get four, that is unfair. If my touchdowns count six points and yours count only five, that is unfair.

 

Unfair is not: better facilities, more/better coaches, more kids coming out for the team, better booster or parent support or better or smarter athletes. If that were the case, "fairness" would virtually be an impossibility. I'm idealistic enough to believe that fairness relates less to outcome and more to the standards (rules) of play. Maybe that's a crazy idea?!?

 

One more thing. Nobody is stopping Red Bank from playing McCallie now except the administrators of those schools. With a complete split, there would be even less reason for those administrators to ever schedule a game with each other. I would be willing to bet, if I were a bettor, that the kids from those schools would love and even relish the chance to play each other -- this year or any year!

Edited October 3, 2006 by supersteve17

[Buzzman]

A few observations. First, results do not always prove or disprove a fair opportunity existed or didn't exist. Every year there are games in many different sports that are lost and later, officials admit mistakes were made in the interpretation or administration of a rule. Those results, unfairly arrived at, are usually not overturned.

 

Second, travel problems would exist, maybe even more than they do now. Your own example (Grundy County) indicates that a complete split would create or exasperate travel problems even for public schools! But then, some schools, like Grundy, Copper Basin and many others, view the necessity of travel as a consequence of location. Private schools would have more travel, but so would some public schools.

 

Third, nothing would be wrong, in my mind, with a FCS/Temple matchup in Class A. In fact, that type of matchup is what you had for at least the last three years before the multiplier -- Boyd-Buchanan vs CPA and BBS vs. DCA twice. That didn't really please everyone then, why would it now?

 

I've said this before, but "unfair" to me means if you get to play with eleven and I have to play with ten, that's unfair. If I can play with twenty year olds and you have to play with eighteen year olds, that is unfair. If you can have five downs to make a first down and I only get four, that is unfair. If my touchdowns count six points and yours count only five, that is unfair.

 

Unfair is not: better facilities, more/better coaches, more kids coming out for the team, better booster or parent support or better or smarter athletes. If that were the case, "fairness" would virtually be an impossibility. I'm idealistic enough to believe that fairness relates less to outcome and more to the standards (rules) of play. Maybe that's a crazy idea?!?

 

One more thing. Nobody is stopping Red Bank from playing McCallie now except the administrators of those schools. With a complete split, there would be even less reason for those administrators to ever schedule a game with each other. I would be willing to bet, if I were a bettor, that the kids from those schools would love and even relish the chance to play each other -- this year or any year!

 

supersteve, I agree with your assessment except for the last paragraph. The only thing stopping a McCallie/Red Bank match-up is the administration at Red Bank. McCallie would love nothing more than to be able to schedule Red Bank every year. Do you think they would rather travel to Niceville, FL again? How about picking up a game at The Lovett School down in Atlanta? Or better yet, paying a team from Columbia, SC to come to Chattanooga and play at Finley Stadium. These games are scheduled so they can play a full 10 game schedule. Tyner is the only public school in Chattanooga that will even touch McCallie. On the other hand, you are right when you say that the kids would love to play each other. Unfortunately, politics seem to get in the way.

[Baldcoach]

The problem is that the anti-private crowd has redefined "fair" to mean "equal in every way" instead of "the same rules of the game are used by all".

 

Some of the more even handed will admit that what they are after isn't "fairness" but what they call a "level playing field". So they lump all privates into a group and kick them out/multiply them...as if that suddenly makes the field level.

 

I don't think athletics is about "level playing fields"...that is way to PC for me. If you want a level playing field play Upwards ball...that way no one wins or loses and we all feel good...sort of.

 

Personally, during the 70s and 80s I didn't ever hear any publics complaining about the privates..because except for the current DII schools the publics were whipping us all. We could have cried and whined about the fact that we would never be able to match the athletes and facilities that the publics had...split off because the publics were just too tough for us, but we didn't. Now the table is turned (at least until the next economic downswing) and suddenly the privates are "unfair" or have some unreachable advantage. Bah. If the private haters really wanted a level playing field they would jump at the chance to institute a merit system...but most of them hate the idea. Why? What they really want is to punish the privates for getting good. Sad.

[MHubbuch]

The problem is that the anti-private crowd has redefined "fair" to mean "equal in every way" instead of "the same rules of the game are used by all".

 

Some of the more even handed will admit that what they are after isn't "fairness" but what they call a "level playing field". So they lump all privates into a group and kick them out/multiply them...as if that suddenly makes the field level.

 

I don't think athletics is about "level playing fields"...that is way to PC for me. If you want a level playing field play Upwards ball...that way no one wins or loses and we all feel good...sort of.

 

Personally, during the 70s and 80s I didn't ever hear any publics complaining about the privates..because except for the current DII schools the publics were whipping us all. We could have cried and whined about the fact that we would never be able to match the athletes and facilities that the publics had...split off because the publics were just too tough for us, but we didn't. Now the table is turned (at least until the next economic downswing) and suddenly the privates are "unfair" or have some unreachable advantage. Bah. If the private haters really wanted a level playing field they would jump at the chance to institute a merit system...but most of them hate the idea. Why? What they really want is to punish the privates for getting good. Sad.

 

 

Baldcoach,

 

I have been saying that for years.The Coaches in most Public schools are not as dedicated. Most Public school parents do not support their kids. Most do not know how they are doing in school or even if they goto school. Kids today are not as interested in athletics as they used to be. But, most private schools get the kids interested in going to games and coming out for athletics. I wonder why that is.

[Indian]

Some parents are barely interested in getting students out of bed, much less hoping they'll be involved in sports, bands or drama. When parents are paying several thousands dollars a year, or even five digits a year, I doubt that happens too often. You have two totally different situations, with selective enrollment, different disciplinary procedures, yet many of the privates feel those differences don't spill out to the playing fields and courts. My opinion is that they do and the numbers prove it.

[my2cents]

Some parents are barely interested in getting students out of bed, much less hoping they'll be involved in sports, bands or drama. When parents are paying several thousands dollars a year, or even five digits a year, I doubt that happens too often. You have two totally different situations, with selective enrollment, different disciplinary procedures, yet many of the privates feel those differences don't spill out to the playing fields and courts. My opinion is that they do and the numbers prove it.

Agree

[big red big blue]

supersteve, I agree with your assessment except for the last paragraph. The only thing stopping a McCallie/Red Bank match-up is the administration at Red Bank. McCallie would love nothing more than to be able to schedule Red Bank every year. Do you think they would rather travel to Niceville, FL again? How about picking up a game at The Lovett School down in Atlanta? Or better yet, paying a team from Columbia, SC to come to Chattanooga and play at Finley Stadium. These games are scheduled so they can play a full 10 game schedule. Tyner is the only public school in Chattanooga that will even touch McCallie. On the other hand, you are right when you say that the kids would love to play each other. Unfortunately, politics seem to get in the way.

 

It's the same reality we face at MBA. Just consider that MBA, of its first 5 games, played 2 in KY and 2 in Memphis. The only way we--or McCallie, or BA--can play a full regular season schedule is to schedule these far flung games all over the SE.

 

I have no problem with separate post-seasons for publics and privates, but I do have a problem when the TSSAA looks at this "objectively" and concludes that there is no problem with what some of these private schools have to go through just to manage a full regular season schedule.

 

But it's even more than that. Riverdale (and when I say Riverdale, I mean Riverdale from the Rankin era) absolutely refuses to play MBA, even when they had an open date and it was for charity in the Clinic Bowl last year. On the other hand, they will scrimmage MBA, and have even beaten MBA in the last few (in as much as you can "win" controlled scrimmages). So then what is the reason for Riverdales' refusal to play MBA? It can't be that they are scared or something, given the success they've had in scrimmages. So then what is it? The same logic could be applied to Brentwood HS and BA. Why not just play that game and have it be a huge event for Williamson County every year? It's pretty obvious to me that they are just petty enough that they don't want to make it easy for us or acknowledge us in any way...Within their rights, I suppose, but not a good testimony to the TSSAA.

 

The irony is, read any Maryville thread whenever the topic of their schedule comes up. They hammer the same local teams every year, but when someone asks why they don't drop some of the local non-region patsies in favor of some tougher non-region opponents they plead that those are local games that generate a lot of local interest for the fans. So a school like Maryville gets to chalk up a bunch of 50-0 wins over outmatched local teams in the name of "local interest," but when local interest would be served by public/private match-ups, the TSSAA affords the publics the right to just do nothing. The hypocrisy is astounding.

Edited October 4, 2006 by big red big blue

[Indian]

With all private schools in Division II, scheduling would be easier and you could potentially have Knoxville/Chattanooga, Nashville/Middle and West/Memphis regions in a Class 1A, 2A and 3A. 3A might have just three or four teams in a region, but there have been districts with those numbers before and things worked out. A two-class Division II would be even easier and if they wanted, the privates could cut out any such out-of-state games mentioned.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Indian

[Bighurt]

Some parents are barely interested in getting students out of bed, much less hoping they'll be involved in sports, bands or drama. When parents are paying several thousands dollars a year, or even five digits a year, I doubt that happens too often. You have two totally different situations, with selective enrollment, different disciplinary procedures, yet many of the privates feel those differences don't spill out to the playing fields and courts. My opinion is that they do and the numbers prove it.

So, you lower the standards for children of disinterested parents by punishing private school children?

[big red big blue]

With all private schools in Division II, scheduling would be easier and you could potentially have Knoxville/Chattanooga, Nashville/Middle and West/Memphis regions in a Class 1A, 2A and 3A. 3A might have just three or four teams in a region, but there have been districts with those numbers before and things worked out. A two-class Division II would be even easier and if they wanted, the privates could cut out any such out-of-state games mentioned.

 

I guess it all just comes down to your view of competition, and how to achieve the highest levels of it with the most fairness and most convenience to all parties. If your view is that the large middle TN public schools--like BHS and Riverdale, with their huge budgets and 1500+ students--are in need of legalized "protection" from having to play the local private schools, then I suppose your solution works. MBA and BA would probably @@@@ up gaudy records against the handful of suitable local privates they aren't playing already (DL and Goodpasture I guess is who you are talking about), and Riverdale will continue its 10 year regular season unbeaten streak en route to bunch of perfect seasons. It would be par for the course for the TSSAA to effect a policy like that.

[Indian]

Why is it punishment? You have totally different types of schools, yet for the most part the privates want to keep playing publics during the postseason and in region/play. Why is that?

 

Here are the private schools that are listed as playing football, with their most recent enrollments. You could divide them into two classes with 26 in each, or three classes with about 17 each. You could also have a dividing number at say 400. The East, which I'd be most interested in, might have David Brainerd, Temple, Knoxville Grace, King's Acad, Silverdale, Chattanooga Grace, Boyd-Buchanan and CAK in a region. Chattanooga schools go to Knoxville once one year, two times the next. Knoxville schools go to Chattanooga three times one year, two times the next. Two hour drive, but a lot better than going to Memphis as some have had to do, plus there's seven set region games for any that find publics refuse to play them. Temple and Boyd already travel long distances for nonregion games playing in 1A, Knoxville might even be closer. An East 2A might have Webb, Catholic, Notre Dame, Baylor and McCallie. Webb and Catholic could compete, Notre Dame could have last year so no reason why they couldn't in other seasons. Midstate/Nashville and West regions could be worked out easily too. For basketball, schedule the long trips just on Friday or Saturday. For baseball, etc, schedule doubleheaders (example, Boyd plays CAK and Knoxville Grace in softball in Knoxville the same Friday night), or just have one regular season game per opponent count in standings. 6-AA does that in softball already to help in travel just from Chattanooga to the surrounding area.

 

Lighthouse Christian 44

Elliston Baptist 63

David Brainerd 88

Zion Christian 104

Temple 106

Rossville Christian 125

Memphis Catholic 135

Mt Juliet Christian 135

Knoxville Grace 138

Clarksville Academy 142

King’s Academy 140

Tipton Rosemark 160

Silverdale Academy 165

MTCS 171

Columbia Academy 174

Chattanooga Grace 181

Nashville Christian 182

Bishop Byrne 186

Sewanee 194

St George’s 212

Trinity Christian 214

Friendship Christian 217

FACS 224

Fayette Academy 233

Jackson Christian 251

Ezell Harding 279

Franklin Road Academy 279

SBEC 280

Davidson Academy 281

Donelson Christian 286

CPA 310

Boyd-Buchanan 347

BGA 356

Ensworth 370

CAK 373

USJ 378

Harding Academy 396

Brentwood Academy 446

Knoxville Webb 488

ECS 515

Lipscomb 526

Knoxville Catholic 548

Notre Dame 561

Briarcrest 612

PJP2 651

Baylor 748

St Benedict 776

MUS 862

MBA 924

Father Ryan 926

McCallie 1250

Christian Brothers 1700

Edited October 4, 2006 by Indian