Bad Officials

[oknative]

The team that scored the "own goal" lost by several goals, so, the own goal by itself would not have affected the outcome of the game. At the time the own goal was scored, the score was 1-1 and that would have made it 2-1. You are more than welcome to review the tape. Everyone who looks at it smiles and say...goal,. Your response. typical. Still evading the topic.

 

If the reason was he didn't want the game to be decided upon on own goal, I'm sorry buddy, that isn't a reason, that's bias.

 

I'm not avoiding anything. If the center ref didn't have a valid reason within the rules to invalidate the goal, then it should have geen a goal.

 

But tell you what. So you can have the last word, I won't comment again about your infamous goal-no goal. If you want to discuss issues in soccer worth commenting about - game on.

[laban]

The officials do the best job they can. i believe that. The call in the hendersoville game was seen different by everyone. I didnt see a elbow and even believed the smaller girl jumped into the hendersonville player and ended up with the worst of it. However, the official truly believed he saw the elbow so he called it that way. He was in fact 2 yards from the players.

 

even though i saw something different, that center official is a good official and has called some great games in HS. Officials can only call what they see and try to be consistent. I think the overwhelming majority of officials try thier best to do so. They are underpaid and asked to do a job that is very subjective in nature. I dont believe any of us can do a better job. Unless there was a way to pay officials more, the quality is going to be suspect much of the time. However, there are some really good officials out there, and I dont have a problem with officiating. Heres why.

 

If my team does what it is supposed to do and put the ball in the back of the net 3 or 4 times, then one bad call or one unlucky play doesnt hurt us. If we dont win a game, its my fault as a coach for not having the team prepared or the players didit execute. A red card can be a different story, but overall, teams win or lose due to there own lack of ability or coaching and not due to bad officiating. A good team finds a way to overcome all obstacles. even bad officiating. once a team takes that attitude, bad officiating is never an issue becuase that team is already mentally prepared to overcome it as an expected obstacle on the way to victory. either way, missed calls or bad calls happen at all levels and will always be a part of it.

 

With all the negative talk, I think we should find times to praise our officials for taking the time to officiate. We have so many good people basically volunteering there time because they want to help. not hurt. To all officials, i say thank you for your efforts. Like all of us, i know you try and do your best. We all make mistakes.

 

ps. im not an official

[hamlet7478]

Laban,

In general, there's wisdom in your reply.

[Canesoverhere]

Laban,

In general, there's wisdom in your reply.

 

yeah....it's a C+ world... and people are content with that.

[chelseafc1975]

yeah....it's a C+ world... and people are content with that.

 

 

Tape your matches. The assigner for our area has asked for a tape from our match because of a similar situation. Our camera had a great angle on a red card offense that the AR passed off as a yellow. Coaches did not see how egregious the foul was from our angle, but after watching the film, we were frustrated. Obviously the match is over and we lost. After seeing the offense, though, a call to our assigner was warranted. He asked for the film, and I am happy to provide the tape to help with educating officials (as an aside, our center is one of the best in the area and did not have the angle to make the call - he was completely at the mercy of the AR, who was reluctant to make any kind of call for the entire evening).

 

I do appreciate all of our officials. Some are great. Some are...not so great. But all of you are underpaid. I am just hopeful that all officials will view their "careers" as a journey (still much to learn) and not as a destination. Having that mentality has certainly helped me as a coach.

 

Looking forward to watching some good soccer this week, and good officiating

[Canesoverhere]

Tape your matches. The assigner for our area has asked for a tape from our match because of a similar situation. Our camera had a great angle on a red card offense that the AR passed off as a yellow. Coaches did not see how egregious the foul was from our angle, but after watching the film, we were frustrated. Obviously the match is over and we lost. After seeing the offense, though, a call to our assigner was warranted. He asked for the film, and I am happy to provide the tape to help with educating officials (as an aside, our center is one of the best in the area and did not have the angle to make the call - he was completely at the mercy of the AR, who was reluctant to make any kind of call for the entire evening).

 

I do appreciate all of our officials. Some are great. Some are...not so great. But all of you are underpaid. I am just hopeful that all officials will view their "careers" as a journey (still much to learn) and not as a destination. Having that mentality has certainly helped me as a coach.

 

Looking forward to watching some good soccer this week, and good officiating

 

INTERESTING. A posting ref shared they would not look at the tape. I am not interested in reversing the call (if you care to read at nauseum..see above and in another post somewhere). I tape all games. It's nice to discuss what took place, especially with some spectators who saw it once, others who never saw the game, and then we go back and look at the tape, once, twice, back and forth. it truly is an education how wrong so many can be and how much more educated you become by editing all the tape.

 

As I had mentioned in an earlier thread. I will probably collect all of the "learning situations" and forward them to the appropriate office.

 

Thanks for your post. Yes and hopefully it will be a week long trip to Chattanooga.

[manoamano]

INTERESTING. A posting ref shared they would not look at the tape. I am not interested in reversing the call (if

 

Thanks for your post. Yes and hopefully it will be a week long trip to Chattanooga.

 

 

 

A ref does not lose or win a game, PLAYERS do. I am certain that 99.9% of each game each team had an opportunity to score, but did not because of the player, not the ref. I agree with Canesoverhere, respect, respect. My repect to the ref's, hard job, underpaid.

 

Anticipating the games also...Good Luck everyone

[oknative]

INTERESTING. A posting ref shared they would not look at the tape. I am not interested in reversing the call (if you care to read at nauseum..see above and in another post somewhere). I tape all games. It's nice to discuss what took place, especially with some spectators who saw it once, others who never saw the game, and then we go back and look at the tape, once, twice, back and forth. it truly is an education how wrong so many can be and how much more educated you become by editing all the tape.

 

As I had mentioned in an earlier thread. I will probably collect all of the "learning situations" and forward them to the appropriate office.

 

Thanks for your post. Yes and hopefully it will be a week long trip to Chattanooga.

 

Keep you facts straight, Canes. I said the TSSAA and NFHS have rules that don't allow for appeals regarding calls on points of fact, which include the use of video. The posting above indicated that an assignor would use the video as an educational tool, which is a pretty good idea.

 

Chelsea, what many spectators continue to fail to understand is that even though your video caught the "foul", it doesn't mean that the AR was looking directly at the foul, or even saw the entire foul sequence. Your post didn't indicate whether the AR had the same angle as your camera - which could account for a different perspective of the call, and neither could the AR see it over and over again, or in slow motion, or frame by frame analysis as you have. He had one or two seconds to make that determination.

 

Case in point, a sectional final game just last week - I'm the AR. Corner kick - ball comes high into the box and two players jump for a header, except that one undercut the other causing her to fall ontop of the girl who undercut her, who was injured. The problem is, I never saw the play. My eyes were drawn from the header by an attacker who had stepped offsides by 2-3 feet towards the goal and my eyes were watching her. Just a second or two to track where she was compared to the defense, and I missed the potential foul. Yet the offsides call is my primary responsibility as an AR. However, the fans directly behind me saw the foul clearly and began to crucify me from the stands for not calling a foul. Is that fair? I was doing exactly what I was supposed to do, and saw something completely different from what people directly behind me saw. Had the ball dropped through to the offsides player who scored a goal, and I get caught not seeing the offsides because I was watching the play - then what? You'd be writing a post how I missed an obvious offsides call.

 

Just because you saw something an official didn't, doesn't mean they weren't doing their jobs, and even doing their job well, and certainly not deserving of posts like this.

[oknative]

A ref does not lose or win a game, PLAYERS do. I am certain that 99.9% of each game each team had an opportunity to score, but did not because of the player, not the ref.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself!

Its going to be an interesting challenge to do the Collierville game.

[chelseafc1975]

Keep you facts straight, Canes. I said the TSSAA and NFHS have rules that don't allow for appeals regarding calls on points of fact, which include the use of video. The posting above indicated that an assignor would use the video as an educational tool, which is a pretty good idea.

 

Chelsea, what many spectators continue to fail to understand is that even though your video caught the "foul", it doesn't mean that the AR was looking directly at the foul, or even saw the entire foul sequence. Your post didn't indicate whether the AR had the same angle as your camera - which could account for a different perspective of the call, and neither could the AR see it over and over again, or in slow motion, or frame by frame analysis as you have. He had one or two seconds to make that determination.

 

Case in point, a sectional final game just last week - I'm the AR. Corner kick - ball comes high into the box and two players jump for a header, except that one undercut the other causing her to fall ontop of the girl who undercut her, who was injured. The problem is, I never saw the play. My eyes were drawn from the header by an attacker who had stepped offsides by 2-3 feet towards the goal and my eyes were watching her. Just a second or two to track where she was compared to the defense, and I missed the potential foul. Yet the offsides call is my primary responsibility as an AR. However, the fans directly behind me saw the foul clearly and began to crucify me from the stands for not calling a foul. Is that fair? I was doing exactly what I was supposed to do, and saw something completely different from what people directly behind me saw. Had the ball dropped through to the offsides player who scored a goal, and I get caught not seeing the offsides because I was watching the play - then what? You'd be writing a post how I missed an obvious offsides call.

 

Just because you saw something an official didn't, doesn't mean they weren't doing their jobs, and even doing their job well, and certainly not deserving of posts like this.

 

 

Your last paragraph leads me to believe that I have offended you...if so, apologies. I am crucifying no one, not even the AR who missed our foul. I was simply stating that taping matches has an added bonus in that it can be used later on for teaching purposes. I was pleased that our head official asked for the tape to use in the future.

 

I agree with you for the most part. My only point of contention that is a little frustrating is that the AR did make the call, calling for the center to stop the match. And she had a better angle than the camera. I completely agree that it is very difficult to make a split second decision and that it is certainly a different story when you are the losing coach looking at the foul in slow motion over and over and over (get my drift) on film after the match. I will say though, that the AR did see the foul because she did call for play to stop and she did have a conversation with the center. Because of this and seeing the foul for myself, it is hard for me to believe she could see this as anything but a red, but I digress...

 

On another note, having never been an official myself I do not know the answer to this, but as a coach I have always hoped that AR's would see their jobs has more than just helping to spot offsides. My complaint with some AR's through the season is that they do not make calls, they just run the line and designate whose throw it is. I have always wanted more from the AR's (to the point that I have asked in the pre-match meeting if AR's will be making calls or not).

 

Again, I APPRECIATE you guys and gals that do this, period. Obviously, as a coach I am going to have a bias in certain circumstances. And obviously, as an official, you are always going to have someone upset with you. I am sure you have learned to deal with that or you would have stopped officiating a long time ago.

[oknative]

Your last paragraph leads me to believe that I have offended you...if so, apologies. I am crucifying no one, not even the AR who missed our foul. I was simply stating that taping matches has an added bonus in that it can be used later on for teaching purposes. I was pleased that our head official asked for the tape to use in the future.

 

I agree with you for the most part. My only point of contention that is a little frustrating is that the AR did make the call, calling for the center to stop the match. And she had a better angle than the camera. I completely agree that it is very difficult to make a split second decision and that it is certainly a different story when you are the losing coach looking at the foul in slow motion over and over and over (get my drift) on film after the match. I will say though, that the AR did see the foul because she did call for play to stop and she did have a conversation with the center. Because of this and seeing the foul for myself, it is hard for me to believe she could see this as anything but a red, but I digress...

 

On another note, having never been an official myself I do not know the answer to this, but as a coach I have always hoped that AR's would see their jobs has more than just helping to spot offsides. My complaint with some AR's through the season is that they do not make calls, they just run the line and designate whose throw it is. I have always wanted more from the AR's (to the point that I have asked in the pre-match meeting if AR's will be making calls or not).

 

Again, I APPRECIATE you guys and gals that do this, period. Obviously, as a coach I am going to have a bias in certain circumstances. And obviously, as an official, you are always going to have someone upset with you. I am sure you have learned to deal with that or you would have stopped officiating a long time ago.

 

 

Chelsea, the last paragraph was more aimed at the entire name of this topic "Bad Officials" and the general whining that is accompanies threads like this - not your specific post. You actually made sense and appear to be fairly understanding of the game. The comment about being crucified was about the parents at that particular game I described. But given that scenario I described, there's no winning for the ref in that position. If I look at the collision and miss an offsides which results in a goal, I get crucified the same (perhaps I should find a more relavant term) perhaps booed, harassed, cursed or verbally hated - would be more descriptive.

 

And you never get used to the verbal abuse, but I simply just ignore it, all of it - that is until it gets personal or someone encourages a player to commit a foul. Then I step in. And unfortunately that becomes one reason that I believe that referees may appear to ignore players, coaches and spectators during a game. Most of all of the commentary we get is just plain ugly. Seldom are we told "that was a good call, I didn't like that you called it on my player, but it was a good call".

 

I'm impressed that the center allowed a yellow from the AR. Should happen more often. Some center referees don't want alot of input from ARs. If they are looking at a "foul" and don't call it, they don't want us lifting our flag to indicate that we thought it was a foul.

 

When I'm in center, I appreciate an AR lifting the flag on a play because they do have a different angle on a play. My perception of foul shouldn't be the only perception taken into consideration. Usually the AR and Center are on the same page with foul recognition, but angle does change a lot.

 

As for tapes, I think they could be a valuable learning tool if presented in the correct manner. It would be nice to see a variety of plays on video that we don't see every day - without spectator commentary - and let a roomful of referees evaluate a play - then find out what call, if any was made. The problem is most videos are likely sent with instructions like "look at these two players, they are wrestling and there was no foul - why not?" But most of us should already know what a push, or holding, or tripping are.

 

Unfortunately, it could take hundreds upon hundreds of hours to find plays that were worthy of review. I would guess that the plays that many spectators, or even coaches, might want reviewed for personal satisfaction, aren't really the type of plays that would make for good training.

[chelseafc1975]

Chelsea, I didn't think that you were crucifying me, but the parents at that particular game were. But given that scenario I described, there's no winning for the ref in that position. If I look at the collision and miss an offsides which results in a goal, I get crucified the same (perhaps I should find a more relavant term) perhaps booed, harassed, cursed or verbally hated - would be more descriptive.

 

And you never get used to the verbal abuse, but I simply just ignore it, all of it - that is until it gets personal or someone encourages a player to commit a foul. Then I step in. And unfortunately that becomes one reason that I believe that referees may appear to ignore players, coaches and spectators during a game. Most of all of the commentary is just plain ugly. Seldom are we told "that was a good call, I didn't like that you called it on my player, but it was a good call".

 

I'm impressed that the center allowed a yellow from the AR. Should happen more often. In that same game mentioned earlier, I went onto the field during an injury to inform the ref that he missed an angle on a foul and that the shoulder in the back I saw should be a direct kick, if not a yellow. I was overrulled and the ball was given to the other team as a throw in. Yes it is frustrating. Some center referees don't want alot of input from ARs. If they are looking at a "foul" and don't call it, they don't want us lifting our flag to indicate that we thought it was a foul.

 

When I'm in center, I appreciate an AR lifting the flag on a play because they do have a different angle on a play. My perception of foul shouldn't be the only perception taken into consideration. Usually the AR and Center are on the same page with foul recognition, but angle does change a lot.

 

As for tapes, I think they could be a valuable learning tool if presented in the correct manner. It would be nice to see a variety of plays on video that we don't see every day - without spectator commentary - and let a roomful of referees evaluate a play - then find out what call, if any was made. The problem is most videos are likely sent with instructions like "look at these two players, they are wrestling and there was no foul - why not?" But most of us should already know what a push, or holding, or tripping are.

 

Unfortunately, it could take hundreds upon hundreds of hours to find plays that were worthy of review. I would guess that the plays that many spectators, or even coaches, might want reviewed for personal satisfaction, aren't really the type of plays that would make for good training.

 

 

Good points all around. Two things that are clearly hindering our conversation: 1) we are talking about two entirely different situations (sounds like we are comparing apples and oranges) and 2) I get no personal satisfaction from sending in film (the match is over and nothing can or should come from it being sent in) but our head official disagrees that the film isn't "really the type of play that would make for good training" since he is the one who requested a copy to be made and given to him after viewing it. If he did not make the request, I would not waste my time burning the dvd for him.