How the multiplier worked

[supersteve17]

Union City, a 2A sized school without the multiplier, beat Manassas, another 2A sized school without the multiplier in the state class A finals.

 

Interesting. I guess it's "pick your poison" for the small, rural public schools. It seems to me that a maximum enrollment number (maybe 250 students or less?) should be imposed on class A rather than a one-third, one-third, one-third division of classes.

 

What think ye?

[PBandJ]

Union City, a 2A sized school without the multiplier, beat Manassas, another 2A sized school without the multiplier in the state class A finals.

 

Interesting. I guess it's "pick your poison" for the small, rural public schools. It seems to me that a maximum enrollment number (maybe 250 students or less?) should be imposed on class A rather than a one-third, one-third, one-third division of classes.

 

What think ye?

 

I guess I would pose a couple questions back at you. When does it end? Why are we worried about removing competition from Junior's annointed state title path? That is what we are doing here, right?

 

Personally, I feel a merit system is the best and fairest way to go. Every team in every class plays into there classification levels based on performance on the field/court/etc. Why isn't that a better solution?

[Antwan]

Union City, a 2A sized school without the multiplier, beat Manassas, another 2A sized school without the multiplier in the state class A finals.

 

Interesting. I guess it's "pick your poison" for the small, rural public schools. It seems to me that a maximum enrollment number (maybe 250 students or less?) should be imposed on class A rather than a one-third, one-third, one-third division of classes.

 

What think ye?

 

 

Union City might have been AA with 391 students...but Manassas would have been A anyway with 336 students.

 

Size of the school does not usually matter near as much in basketball rather than football. It wouldn't bother me to have one or two classes for basketball...softball...and baseball.

[Indian]

How can you have a merit system in basketball when a school may have one of the best boys' programs in the state but one of the worst girls' programs?

[Bighurt]

How can you have a merit system in basketball when a school may have one of the best boys' programs in the state but one of the worst girls' programs?

 

I am glad you asked that question even though the merit system will never be tried in Tennessee in my opinion.

 

The merit system would promote or relegate (move up or down in class) based on the teams performance in each individual sport. So if the boys basketball team did well, they would move up in class but the girls team would not necessarily move up also. Or if the football team did well, they would move up but teams in other sports at that school might not.

 

I know this could lead to scheduling problems in basketball where there are girls/boys doubleheaders. Football is what drives the bus any way.

[taydizzle]

Is the multiplier going to continue to be used after next year?

[rick7425]

I am glad you asked that question even though the merit system will never be tried in Tennessee in my opinion.

 

The merit system would promote or relegate (move up or down in class) based on the teams performance in each individual sport. So if the boys basketball team did well, they would move up in class but the girls team would not necessarily move up also. Or if the football team did well, they would move up but teams in other sports at that school might not.

 

I know this could lead to scheduling problems in basketball where there are girls/boys doubleheaders. Football is what drives the bus any way.

 

I think this merit system is sort of a pie-in-the-sky idea anyway. It sounds good in theory, but it seems pretty impractical. It would make it pretty hard for schools to make up their schedules since reclassification would be very much up in the air, however often it occurred. It seems like the formula for reclassification would have to take into account things like strength of schedule, since those in the lower merit classifications would be playing easier schedules and might therefore get bumped up when perhaps they don't deserve to be. I guess you would have to put together a sort of RPI system for high schools in each sport. And I suspect a lot of schools would see waning interest and perhaps waning revenues in the regular season if they can't maintain some of their long-standing traditional rivalries because they keep getting bumped around in classification based on merit.

 

And this doesn't even reach the problem identified above with basketball, where the vast majority of the games are indeed doubleheaders. Different classifications for boys and girls teams in basketball would potentially add a lot of extra expense and could detract from the benefits to the students and supporters of the school when their boys and girls teams regularly have to play in different places. There are other sports like track where boys and girls teams sometimes join in single meets as well.

 

I suspect that you'll find some complaints no matter what system is used to classify schools for competition. I don't know, but it seems to me like this "merit system" idea is a sort of vague idea that sounds good in the abstract but may not be so good when you have to work out the nuts and bolts of it. It seems to be a little too playoff-driven. I suspect it would just create a lot of new headaches and new problems for every school in the state, not to mention a lot of extra work for TSSAA, in order to appease the handful of schools that get upset when they can't win a state championship as often as they think they deserve.

[lazarus]

your concern for the small public is touching soupersteve.

but arent you a supporter for a small private that could get back into 1-A without the multiplier?

who is it wanting to see competition removed?

 

i dont remember hearing any of the publics talk about union city's student count,

and i know one of the coaches they beat on the way.

[Indian]

For an example on the problems a basketball merit would have, the girls' basketball team was ranked around 30th out of 350 in-state on unapproved website in an RPI type system, among all state teams. The boys team was ranked about 250th and would have a totally different set of opponents. The teams played in separate locations a few times such as hall of fame games, a Thanksgiving tournament and the postseason but I can't see a whole season happening that way. Baseball and softball manage it but they're two different sports, a double-header for those would either have to start very early or would end at about 10 pm.

 

Another problem, and this could go for any sport, what if your grouping has only one or two other teams within 100 miles? We looked at a projection in football last year and the only teams in one group in this whole area would have been Polk County, Marion County and Meigs County. If you went to four classes that might help some of that. Going by the Moore ratings from last fall (one year instead at least a couple of years of results), in four classes, the teams around here would have been like this:

 

4A-

1-South Pittsburg

2-Red Bank

3-McCallie

4-Ooltewah

5-McMinn County

6-Brainerd

7-Baylor

8-Rhea County

9-Cleveland

 

3A

1-Soddy-Daisy

2-Howard

3-Tyner

4-McMinn Central

5-Polk County

 

2A

1-Notre Dame

2-Meigs County

3-Boyd-Buchanan

4-Walker Valley

5-Chattanooga Central

6-Lookout Valley

7-Bradley Central

8-Hixson

9-Marion County

10-East Ridge

11-Silverdale Academy

12-Bledsoe County

13-Grundy County

 

1A

1-Chattanooga Grace

2-Whitwell

3-Sequatchie

4-Tellico Plains

5-David Brainerd

6-Temple

7-Copper Basin

 

A few problems if it ended like this. You have a team like South Pittsburg who could end up in the top section in an initial grouping. Last fall, this fall if some linemen come through, maybe they could compete with most 5A type teams. Two years this decade they only won two or three games while playing in 1A. The team here was 4-6 in 2A and ran for over 500 yards against them, imagine what an Ooltewah would have done. It might even out and a South Pittsburg, using them for an example, would fall into 3A or 2A, but how many seasons would it take? Plus they might have the occasional high level season or two again to put them back above where they should be and you might start the process again.

 

The 2A region would probably be split so I don't see those things being a problem. If you had more than eight regions in a group they'd probably use the three from a region then wild card set-up.

 

Having a totally different set of opponents maybe every two years would make it hard to develop rivalries, and especially if a team was having difficulty adapting to a rising level of competition, might hurt attendance. Losing games in a higher level after expectations were raised winning in a lower group might also cost a coach his job, even if he did more than enough in the natural level. A program could also have a once in a decade group of talent win big for a couple of years then graduate, rise in class, and not be able to put up much fight at all against tougher opponents.

[Bighurt]

How can you have a merit system in basketball when a school may have one of the best boys' programs in the state but one of the worst girls' programs?

 

Rick7425,

I agree the merit system won't happen in Tennessee but other states (I think, Ohio) use it. I would suggest you have a points system over a 2 or 4-year period. At the end of the period, take the top team from each region and the 4 teams with the most points are "promoted" one class for the next classification period. You could "relegate/demote" in the same manner with the bottom 4 teams. I am not talking a major change but after 2 classification periods you might have 8 teams move up within a classification and 8 teams move down. I did some research on this and private schools in football like Lipscomb, Goodpasture, USJ, Boyd and CPA might have been promoted (the multiplier, of course, took care of that /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /> ) and public schools like Alcoa, Maryville, Fulton and Trousdale County might be promoted.

 

Indian,

You pose a question about what would if happen if a boys' program is good and a girls' program is not in basketball. Doesn't the multiplier have the same effect on every sport at most D1 private schools? That is my main complaint regarding the multiplier.

[Bighurt]

To address the topic title "How the multiplier worked", there were 3 private schools in the D1 boys' state tournament -none in the girls' state tournament. CPA in 2A was the only team who moved up in class and made the tournament. They lost in the first round.

[rick7425]

Bighurt:

Only moving a few teams makes it a little more practical, but there is still a problem for those teams that get moved. They will lose traditional rivalries, and they will lose the regular season revenues that come with higher attendance at those traditional rivalry games. You also will have problems with maintaining rivalries from one sport to the next. Some of a school's basketball rivalries may not be as significant if the schools are no longer playing each other in football because of inconsistency in classification between sports based on the merit system. The basketball problem is also still a big problem for a school whose boys and girls teams are playing in two different classifications. That would add all sorts of scheduling problems for the school, and it would hurt attendance and the revenue that accompanies attendance. In a school setting where one of those programs drives the attendance at games, the other program could really suffer (and we don't even need to venture into the potential for Title IX implications with this).

 

It still just seems like it opens a Pandora's Box of regular season problems. The merit system sounds appealing in the abstract, but I don't think it is such a great idea.