Div II Favorite

[ahapplet]

I'm going to assume (probably wrongly) that you're arguments are genuine, and not just snarkiness, and address them from that point.

 

With money (and heaven knows that's a bis issue with the TSSAA), I think you're looking at the chicken-egg argument. Does Div. II get stuck with mid-week championships because they draw a low attendance, or do they draw a low attendance because the game is in the middle of the week? Tossing in another issue, are the Div II championships less well attended than the A or AA championships? And if they're the week or two prior to the Div I championship, why does it matter at all? Play them on Fri or Sat, when you'll certainly get better attendance, even if it is smaller than the AAAAA gate?

 

As to the level field issue, I'm aware of the Coach T policy that requires recruiting be mentioned in all Div II related posts; I'm glad we've settled that now, and don't need to address it here in this thread again. Again, as I think one or two people may have alluded to previously, if you've got evidence, let the TSSAA know; I'm sure they'd be delighted to show up at the accused institution with their endoscopes and conduct the investigation. And as a pre-emptive suggestion, let's not mention the long running matter between BA and the TSSAA. That issue divided enough courts over the year to suggest that contacting a youngster after his parents have paid a deposit is not something everybody recognizes as recruiting. Just my humble opinion, but in terms of recruiting, that seems to me to be analogous to sending a hooker flowers the day after you've utilized her services. Squandered resources. Again, see other posts for the details, but to reiterate the high point: a company in New Jersey makes the decision as to who gets financial aid and how much. The head football coach has no input.

 

I can't speak for all Div II schools, but MBA's tuition hovers around 15K. If they don't give financial aid, they become virtually a lily-white school reserved solely for the sons of the elite in Belle Meade, Franklin, and Brentwood. In as much as diversity enhances education, financial aid is a necessity at MBA to provide the educational experience it deems best for its students.

 

In many cases, Div I supporters and their attitude toward Div II remind me of the relationship between people without tattoos towards those who do have tattoos. They frequently look with contempt on the other party, despite the fact that they receive no such ill will from the a priori.

 

 

My attitude toward Division II football is that it is more of a business than football. My only reason for expressing this attitude is that someone (I forget who) stated they no Division I supporter would engage in the debate and I was willing to give an opinion on this subject. My basic point is that pro-football is all about the money, and college football is as well. High school football is best when played for the love of the sport and Division II football has students playing who get financial aid. I like the idea of all kinds of young people coming together and forming a team. This would include different academic abilities, social levels, cultures, economic levels, etc. and is something you just can't replicate at MBA. This is the main reason that I think your play-offs will never be as well attended as Division I games, even if you were able to hold them at a better time. As far as the hookers and flowers and recruiting and such, this is your version of said events. I don't have ill will toward Divison II, but just wanted to point out a trade-off you must accept as to interest or lack of it, as far as football is concerned.

[ahapplet]

and that is what I would expect from a rising sophomore.

 

 

Hey now..... a junior Junior college is a good thing........right?

[KWoodroof]

My attitude toward Division II football is that it is more of a business than football. My only reason for expressing this attitude is that someone (I forget who) stated they no Division I supporter would engage in the debate and I was willing to give an opinion on this subject. My basic point is that pro-football is all about the money, and college football is as well. High school football is best when played for the love of the sport and Division II football has students playing who get financial aid. I like the idea of all kinds of young people coming together and forming a team. This would include different academic abilities, social levels, cultures, economic levels, etc. and is something you just can't replicate at MBA. This is the main reason that I think your play-offs will never be as well attended as Division I games, even if you were able to hold them at a better time. As far as the hookers and flowers and recruiting and such, this is your version of said events. I don't have ill will toward Divison II, but just wanted to point out a trade-off you must accept as to interest or lack of it, as far as football is concerned.

 

If I'm following you correctly, you're making a connection between college football and Div II football that doesn't exist. A young man playing football in college on a scholarship is receiving remuneration (in the form of an education) for playing football. There is no similar quid pro quo in Div II. Yes, MBA has some football players who receive financial aid (as well as some cross-county runners, rifle team members, debaters, and those who participate in no activity beyond intramural sports). But if they leave the football program, their financial aid stays the same: they don't receive financial aid for playing football. And while MBA unabashedly caters to an academic upper-class, the financial aid program allows it to reach an academic upper class who come from different social levels, cultures, and economic levels, factors which you rightly value: we do too. (In my day, when tuition was much lower, young men receiving financial aid were barred from TSSAA sports, hardly an equitable solution).

 

As to our complaints about mid-week championships, it's not a matter of attendance. We really don't care who else comes to the game. It's a matter of convenience for us. I'm sure that it was an inconvenience for the kids at BA who went to last year's state championship; it was infinitely worse for the MUS crowd, who had roughly a 4 hour drive back on a school night.

 

Regarding crowds and the triviality of the regualr season, two thoughts. First, the point about the triviality is not without some merit. I'm old enough to remember 3 classifications, each with 16 districts: you had to win one of them to go into the play-offs at all. Still, we had nothing to do with the increase in classifications, and the split was forced on us; it's not like we asked not to compete with the public schools. In my day (we say that a lot as we approach 50), the public schools relished playing us. Coaches like Wes Elrod, Garland Russell, Warren Dunn, and Nick Coutras were excited to test their teams against MBA and Ryan. Funny how nobody complained about us or recruiting from '75-'78, when we won a total of 25 games, and never qualified for a bowl game, and certainly not the play-offs.

 

And as far as crowds go, despite relatively small enrollments, Div II games do draw good crowds. I suspect that there will be no seats at MBA for the Ensworth game, and it's unusual for there to be many when MBA hosts BA or Ryan either. I venture to say that no Metro Nashville game will draw a similar-sized crowd that night.

[ahapplet]

If I'm following you correctly, you're making a connection between college football and Div II football that doesn't exist. A young man playing football in college on a scholarship is receiving remuneration (in the form of an education) for playing football. There is no similar quid pro quo in Div II. Yes, MBA has some football players who receive financial aid (as well as some cross-county runners, rifle team members, debaters, and those who participate in no activity beyond intramural sports). But if they leave the football program, their financial aid stays the same: they don't receive financial aid for playing football. And while MBA unabashedly caters to an academic upper-class, the financial aid program allows it to reach an academic upper class who come from different social levels, cultures, and economic levels, factors which you rightly value: we do too. (In my day, when tuition was much lower, young men receiving financial aid were barred from TSSAA sports, hardly an equitable solution).

 

As to our complaints about mid-week championships, it's not a matter of attendance. We really don't care who else comes to the game. It's a matter of convenience for us. I'm sure that it was an inconvenience for the kids at BA who went to last year's state championship; it was infinitely worse for the MUS crowd, who had roughly a 4 hour drive back on a school night.

 

Regarding crowds and the triviality of the regualr season, two thoughts. First, the point about the triviality is not without some merit. I'm old enough to remember 3 classifications, each with 16 districts: you had to win one of them to go into the play-offs at all. Still, we had nothing to do with the increase in classifications, and the split was forced on us; it's not like we asked not to compete with the public schools. In my day (we say that a lot as we approach 50), the public schools relished playing us. Coaches like Wes Elrod, Garland Russell, Warren Dunn, and Nick Coutras were excited to test their teams against MBA and Ryan. Funny how nobody complained about us or recruiting from '75-'78, when we won a total of 25 games, and never qualified for a bowl game, and certainly not the play-offs.

 

And as far as crowds go, despite relatively small enrollments, Div II games do draw good crowds. I suspect that there will be no seats at MBA for the Ensworth game, and it's unusual for there to be many when MBA hosts BA or Ryan either. I venture to say that no Metro Nashville game will draw a similar-sized crowd that night.

 

 

 

What did make the difference in your football programs, if not being able to give financial aid to students who could also play football? How many scholarship students do Division II schools have? How many play football? What is the breakdown of students with economic disadvantages, students from various cultures, and students from lower social levels than the majority of students at MBA? It is hard for some to believe that several of the Division II schools would continue to have the success they seem to enjoy without some strategically placed scholarship students. Or, are you telling me that the economically, academically and socially advantaged boys tend to make the best football players? I contend that the numbers of students who fit into the category I just mentioned are any more represented at the college level, than the students who are not in this very small percentage of the population.

[rollredroll]

What did make the difference in your football programs, if not being able to give financial aid to students who could also play football? How many scholarship students do Division II schools have? How many play football? What is the breakdown of students with economic disadvantages, students from various cultures, and students from lower social levels than the majority of students at MBA? It is hard for some to believe that several of the Division II schools would continue to have the success they seem to enjoy without some strategically placed scholarship students. Or, are you telling me that the economically, academically and socially advantaged boys tend to make the best football players? I contend that the numbers of students who fit into the category I just mentioned are any more represented at the college level, than the students who are not in this very small percentage of the population.

 

 

You must be on a Viagra binge, because you have had a multi-day hard-on about this topic. Have you even posted recently on a thread about the team/classification you actually do support? I guess a quick search will answer that question.

 

No names here, but with a little internet savvy and knowledge of Nashville, and at no cost, you can do a little research on MBA's most prominent player currently in the NFL. He was Vanderbilt's first Academic All-American in about two decades when he was tabbed. He had a 1400+ on his SAT and a Wonderlic score through the roof. His father was a CEO of a NYSE-traded company. He lived, during his time at MBA, two miles away from the MBA campus.

 

Once again, all of this information is available on the internet, and while this man is just one example, those of us who are close to Division II football (and in this case, MBA) know the real story, and know that examples like this one (not so much the pro player aspect as much as the well-rounded student-athlete aspect) are more the rule than the exception. The key to making the search above is "knowledge of Nashville", and sadly, it seems like the majority of people who bash DII schools live well outside of big cities and have little or no knowledge of the student bodies of the DII schools. And, in many of those cases, those bashers are from programs who can't even keep up with the Trousdale Countys and Alcoas and Milans and a handful of other public school programs who throw the "private school advantage" claims aside and just go about their business of winning. For full disclosure and to give us all perspective, why don't you let us know where you stand in this category?

 

There are public-private threads designated for this type of debate; maybe your rants would be better received and supported there. This thread is about DII favorites - none of which will "take away" any championship from any DI school, and all of which who have students attending by their parents' choice.

[KWoodroof]

What did make the difference in your football programs, if not being able to give financial aid to students who could also play football? How many scholarship students do Division II schools have? How many play football? What is the breakdown of students with economic disadvantages, students from various cultures, and students from lower social levels than the majority of students at MBA? It is hard for some to believe that several of the Division II schools would continue to have the success they seem to enjoy without some strategically placed scholarship students. Or, are you telling me that the economically, academically and socially advantaged boys tend to make the best football players? I contend that the numbers of students who fit into the category I just mentioned are any more represented at the college level, than the students who are not in this very small percentage of the population.

 

MBA's success in football predates financial aid or diversity of student body. It predates any particularly impressive facitilities (except the field, Frank Andrews Field was always the very best in Nashville). Our teams succeed because they are well cocached, well disciplined, and are constantly reminded of the tradition that they are expected to carry on. Maybe the fact that for 140+ years we've pprepared young men for success in a host of endeavors seems to attract parents to the school.

 

In other words, if you have an accusation, make it, and lay your evidence on the table. Insinuation and innuendo is not proof; it's scurrilous gossip.

[ahapplet]

You must be on a Viagra binge, because you have had a multi-day hard-on about this topic. Have you even posted recently on a thread about the team/classification you actually do support? I guess a quick search will answer that question.

 

No names here, but with a little internet savvy and knowledge of Nashville, and at no cost, you can do a little research on MBA's most prominent player currently in the NFL. He was Vanderbilt's first Academic All-American in about two decades when he was tabbed. He had a 1400+ on his SAT and a Wonderlic score through the roof. His father was a CEO of a NYSE-traded company. He lived, during his time at MBA, two miles away from the MBA campus.

 

Once again, all of this information is available on the internet, and while this man is just one example, those of us who are close to Division II football (and in this case, MBA) know the real story, and know that examples like this one (not so much the pro player aspect as much as the well-rounded student-athlete aspect) are more the rule than the exception. The key to making the search above is "knowledge of Nashville", and sadly, it seems like the majority of people who bash DII schools live well outside of big cities and have little or no knowledge of the student bodies of the DII schools. And, in many of those cases, those bashers are from programs who can't even keep up with the Trousdale Countys and Alcoas and Milans and a handful of other public school programs who throw the "private school advantage" claims aside and just go about their business of winning. For full disclosure and to give us all perspective, why don't you let us know where you stand in this category?

 

There are public-private threads designated for this type of debate; maybe your rants would be better received and supported there. This thread is about DII favorites - none of which will "take away" any championship from any DI school, and all of which who have students attending by their parents' choice.

[ahapplet]

Hey roll red, sounds like the truth hurts. Your one example proves my point. Was he All American the year Vanderbilt won the Southeastern conference or was runner-up in the National Championship? What's it to you who I support or if I post on this subject? If you don't like what I type, do not read it. Got it? I think that Division II football is like a Junior Junior College and that is why it generates little interest. Everyone is going to make it to the play-offs! Good luck. I hope MBA wins Division II football in 2009, because I like woodroof. He is much more polite in his replies than you. If not for mine and woodroof's discussion, you would have even fewer posts in Division II football. I don't care if I have any support on this thread. I really enjoy the debate. Sorry, if I ruffled your feathers.

[ahapplet]

MBA's success in football predates financial aid or diversity of student body. It predates any particularly impressive facitilities (except the field, Frank Andrews Field was always the very best in Nashville). Our teams succeed because they are well cocached, well disciplined, and are constantly reminded of the tradition that they are expected to carry on. Maybe the fact that for 140+ years we've pprepared young men for success in a host of endeavors seems to attract parents to the school.

 

In other words, if you have an accusation, make it, and lay your evidence on the table. Insinuation and innuendo is not proof; it's scurrilous gossip.

 

 

This is certainly not an accusation or scurrilous gossip. Where did you go to law school? Oh and it's not insinuation and innuendo either. It is simple curiosity. Lots of teams in all of the various categories are well coached, and are well disciplined. As far as tradition goes, my son is playing on a team that my great-grandfather played on. Do you mean you have no young women at your school? Put your evidence on the table. Answer the questions in my earlier post, please? Lots of schools had winning traditions in the years before real competition.

[savestheday798]

This is certainly not an accusation or scurrilous gossip. Where did you go to law school? Oh and it's not insinuation and innuendo either. It is simple curiosity. Lots of teams in all of the various categories are well coached, and are well disciplined. As far as tradition goes, my son is playing on a team that my great-grandfather played on. Do you mean you have no young women at your school? Put your evidence on the table. Answer the questions in my earlier post, please? Lots of schools had winning traditions in the years before real competition.

 

 

 

Please elaborate on "real competition"

[rollredroll]

Hey roll red, sounds like the truth hurts. Your one example proves my point. Was he All American the year Vanderbilt won the Southeastern conference or was runner-up in the National Championship? What's it to you who I support or if I post on this subject? If you don't like what I type, do not read it. Got it? I think that Division II football is like a Junior Junior College and that is why it generates little interest. Everyone is going to make it to the play-offs! Good luck. I hope MBA wins Division II football in 2009, because I like woodroof. He is much more polite in his replies than you. If not for mine and woodroof's discussion, you would have even fewer posts in Division II football. I don't care if I have any support on this thread. I really enjoy the debate. Sorry, if I ruffled your feathers.

 

 

 

My feathers are not ruffled. We've been dealing with this for years on CoachT. Tough debates require tough questions, and it looks like you are avoiding them. Your history does precede you, though - the benefits of search functions on this site.

 

The truth does not hurt; I just like debating with those who avoid questions and can't provide hard evidence or even examples. They are a deep-sea fisherman's dream.

 

I am not sure where you are going with VU/SEC/NC reference. That's college football.

 

Yes, Woodroof is infinitely more polite, I assure you. Anyone who would even remotely consider sending flowers to a hooker is far more of a gentleman that I would ever hope to be. /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

[big red big blue]

Here is all you need to know about D1 football, versus D2...The argument is epitomized by my "favortie" subject, MBA and Hillsboro. Both have emerged as dominant teams in their respective divisions, with Hillsboro making multiple 4A title appearances and getting over the Maryville hump last year and claiming their second 4A title in the decade. MBA has won multiple titles in D2 while scheduling and winning multiple high profile out-of-state games.

 

The two schools are located about a 5 iron from each other and recently renewed their rivalry with a 2 game, home-home series. It is a historical rivalry with huge local fan interest from generations of people from West Nashville/Green Hills. Both games were busting at the seams with fans. My friends who attended the MBA game at MBA 2 years ago said it was the most exciting atmosphere they had seen at a game since the pre-split era. Both games went absolutely down to the wire. MBA won both NARROWLY. and best of all, the games don't count in any sort of offical standings, so it is all about bragging rights, a fun atmosphere for the fans, and a quality game that pays dividends (perhaps evidenced by Hillsboro's title) down the road in meaningful games. No one has to worry about the implications of scheduling and losing...and if you're Hillsboro and you lose? No sweat, just declare that "MBA cheats" and dismiss it completely. Win, and you are the king of the hill.

 

So, naturally, this being Tennessee and all...what does Hillsboro do with this fantastic series that has nothing but upside for both teams? Back out of it, of course. No more MBA-Hillsboro games, purely because Hillsboro doesn't want them. So anyone with a rational reason for why Hillsboro doesn't play this game, I'd love to hear it.