Open zone schools: A level playing field?

[Govolsknox]

Now, to more important things...I would definitely like to look you up to shake hands at the BB game Tuesday. I hope that APB and BC are there as well!? I know it may be hard to work out with everyone's post Holiday schedule, but is anyone interested in lunch at BOH on Monday or Tuesday? If so, I will try to wake FBD up in time to join us if we can work it out.

 

ohhhhhhh.........did someone say FOOD?! Sorry GVK, Monday is the first day back to work. It will take two days to just clear my email inbox BUT, I will be a the BB game............I'll introduce you to scots50 and 50ishfootballmom.

 

I understand conpletely! Monday and Tuesday will be busy for all of us. We'll do BOH another time. I look forward to seeing you at the BB game Tuesday night and meeting more of the Alcoa faithful. It seems like FBD and APB have been AWOL on the boards recently, so hopefully they will be awake by Tuesday night.

[ksgovols]

It's really a rural vs urban/suburban issue. What other zone are players from Lewis County going to go? It's a one school county. The rural schools are at a disadvantage because they have a limited pool to draw from and they aren't in an area where players can commute or parents can find housing and jobs as readily as in more urban areas. There's nothing to stop any family from renting or selling their house and renting an apartment for a couple of years so that their child can play for another program. As long as kids aren't being recruited, I don't think there's any leveling of the playing field to be had.

No,it isn't.Essentially A.E. is an open zone as it is a "magnet" school.It has and still is killing South Doyle.

 

Doesn't mean that open zones, magnet schools and privates can't beat up on other urban schools. It means that rural publics don't have the same opportunities to go to open zones, magnet schools or privates without moving. By circumstances and geography, their playing field will never change unless they can attract parents to move to their rural community, find jobs, housing and the same athletic opportunities that they could find in a big city environment with more choices available to them.

 

I mean, there are opportunties for players zoned for South Doyle to go to Austin East or CAK or any of the Blount County schools without moving are there not?

[ksgovols]

BC:

 

You read this thread the exact same way I did. This is a very feable thread disgused as "intelligent discussion "not aimed at any one school". Bottom-line: CAK is tired of losing to Alcoa and wants TSSAA to apply a multipler to Alcoa and move us up and out of AA so they have a clear shot to State.

 

I think Alcoa playing in DII is a great idea. I think we would do quite well and continue to add gold balls to our trophy case.

 

There you go GVK. Make the pitch to TSSAA. If you can't beat em.....lobby and move em.

 

Absolutely scots50! Many people feel that Alcoa success comes from open zone. Bringing talent in from "coast to coast" The success is the players buying into the system and a winning tradition made up of hard work, the best coaching, teaching football fundamentals for years through successfully feeder programs and last, the best community support!

 

Which came first. The hard work, excellent coaching and successful feeder programs or the open zone?

[scots50]

The argument consistently presented in this thread is that the open zone status for Alcoa, Maryville, Oak Ridge, etc. gives these teams an overwhelming advantage. The premise is open zone talent alone is enough to provide an unfair advantage over other schools. Although I will agree, talent is an important factor; I will not buy into the argument that open zone talent alone is why teams like Alcoa and Maryville are successful year in and out.

 

I have read on these Coach T threads as well as several on the TN Varsity threads that declare (and most that respond agree) that the Memphis area teams are the hotbed of football talent in Tennessee. I do not think anyone that knows anything about TN HS football can disagree.

 

If the position taken by so many herein is true – open zone talent is an overwhelming multiplier - that coaching, hard work, player development and player buy-in - play a much lesser contribution to success, then answer me this Batman: How come the Memphis area teams do not dominate the state on all classifications every year? Why do they lose to East teams with much lesser talent? Based upon the arguments I have read in this thread, these Memphis talent laden teams should just be able to line-up and mop up anyone in the state. (White Station is the first team from the Memphis area that I thought clearly exhibited all qualities argued herein.)

 

The answer why not is (prioritized as challenged) 1) coaching talent - Xs and Os, intensity and tone, player expectations, work ethic, building the schemes that best fit their player talent and ability, 2) player buy-in to the coach's plan and requirements, 3) player and coaching staff hard work and dedication to meet goals and expectations, 4) player commitment to development - offseason strength training and conditioning programs that truly work -that build football power and not beach buff. I have seen many players on local teams in the last few years that brag about benching over 300 lbs. When you ask them what the squat, clean and dead lift they start making excuses as to why they do not execute these lifts! Sad but true. 5) Senior leadership - nuff said.

 

To further my point, CAK has closed the gap on Alcoa through excellent execution of items 1-5 above. They have not gone out and “bought new talent”. They do not give scholarships. And let’s face it; the best football talent in East TN generally does not come from homes that can afford $9K a year in tuition. Yet, they have consistently closed the gap.

 

Milan’s coach stated in the Jackson Sun that the 2008 championship game with Alcoa exposed huge strength and physicality gaps in the Milan team. He indicated that they had worked extra hard in offseason strength programs to try to close the gap. In the 2009 game, I think it was evident that they had made some ground but still have a way to go.

 

Bottom-line: Items 1-5 above are much more important and must occur before talent makes an impact. These items build a program that people want their kids to be in – that they will move their homes to that zone or pay tuition when possible. Items 1-5 build the foundation and begin the cycle of lasting excellence.

 

How many of your players are running steps, slamming the real lifts that build football power, and dragging/pushing sleds January - April? All without coach attendance, supervision or drive? How many? 1? 2? 10%, 30%, 90%? If it is not in the 90% and above, you can kiss a chance at a state championship goodbye, I do care how much talent you have. I will bet you that number is true at Alcoa, CAK and Maryville right now.

 

GVK – look forward to seeing you Tuesday night. See if you can drag Juniors Dad and Junior along as well. I would like to meet him and his son. Maybe my boy and his can go to some camps together this summer.

[JuniorsDad]

How many of your players are running steps, slamming the real lifts that build football power, and dragging/pushing sleds January - April? All without coach attendance, supervision or drive? How many? 1? 2? 10%, 30%, 90%? If it is not in the 90% and above, you can kiss a chance at a state championship goodbye, I do care how much talent you have. I will bet you that number is true at Alcoa, CAK and Maryville right now.

 

GVK – look forward to seeing you Tuesday night. See if you can drag Juniors Dad and Junior along as well. I would like to meet him and his son. Maybe my boy and his can go to some camps together this summer.

 

Scots50, Thank you for the kind words concerning our players. No need to drag me along to the game Tuesday, my daughter plays on the JV team. I am not sure if we will see Junior at the game or not, he has some off season work to do in the weight room. I appreciate the offer to attend some camps this summer, I think it would be a GOOD time.

[Indian]

If they're working out unsupervised on school grounds, you shouldn't be surprised if a lawsuit results from some (hopefully never) serious injury.

[jangel]

The argument consistently presented in this thread is that the open zone status for Alcoa, Maryville, Oak Ridge, etc. gives these teams an overwhelming advantage.

No, it is not. The argument presented here is that the open zone status provides an unfair advantage. How large of an advantage does not matter, only whether or not it is considered fair.

 

The premise is open zone talent alone is enough to provide an unfair advantage over other schools. Although I will agree, talent is an important factor; I will not buy into the argument that open zone talent alone is why teams like Alcoa and Maryville are successful year in and out.

Again, no. The premise is that open zone talent makes the difference between Alcoa and Maryville being 'successful' programs and being dominant programs going to the finals every year. And in Alcoa's case, almost never having competitive games within their classification.

 

If the position taken by so many herein is true – open zone talent is an overwhelming multiplier - that coaching, hard work, player development and player buy-in - play a much lesser contribution to success...

I'm sure there are some that take the position you are putting us all in, but not the many you claim. Anyone will readily admit the great value of the qualities you describe in your post.

 

answer me this Batman: How come the Memphis area teams do not dominate the state on all classifications every year? Why do they lose to East teams with much lesser talent?

What teams are you referring to? Do you really believe teams like Alcoa and Maryville have "much lesser talent" than their Memphis area counterparts?

 

The answer why not is (prioritized as challenged) 1) coaching talent - Xs and Os, intensity and tone, player expectations, work ethic, building the schemes that best fit their player talent and ability, 2) player buy-in to the coach's plan and requirements, 3) player and coaching staff hard work and dedication to meet goals and expectations, 4) player commitment to development - offseason strength training and conditioning programs that truly work -that build football power and not beach buff. I have seen many players on local teams in the last few years that brag about benching over 300 lbs. When you ask them what the squat, clean and dead lift they start making excuses as to why they do not execute these lifts! Sad but true. 5) Senior leadership - nuff said.

There are many kids and teams that work hard as you have described here, without even a hope of ever sniffing a championship. How much easier is it to motivate athletes to go above and beyond when they are part of a dominant program? If open zoning is an unfair advantage, it would only make it easier to achieve these goals as well.

 

To further my point, CAK has closed the gap on Alcoa through excellent execution of items 1-5 above. They have not gone out and “bought new talent”. They do not give scholarships. And let’s face it; the best football talent in East TN generally does not come from homes that can afford $9K a year in tuition. Yet, they have consistently closed the gap.

CAK is also a multiplied private school. Not the best team to choose for a comparison in this argument. When the best example you can give of a team "working hard" to show that others can compete with Alcoa is a multiplied school, something is wrong. Especially ironic since you are basically arguing against the point that Alcoa (and company) is a team that should be considered for a multiplier itself. Forgive me if your actual point has eluded me.

 

Bottom-line: Items 1-5 above are much more important and must occur before talent makes an impact. These items build a program that people want their kids to be in – that they will move their homes to that zone or pay tuition when possible. Items 1-5 build the foundation and begin the cycle of lasting excellence.

Since it is easier to pay a small tuition then change residence, isn't it logical that open zoning provides a greater opportunity for athletes to join such a program? Would this constitute an unfair advantage?

 

I would like to say I have nothing against the above mentioned schools. I only referenced them as they were brought up in the quoted post. No offense to scots, but I feel you misrepresented the argument to make it appear weaker than it is. I still believe it is more complicated than simply open zoning, but I also believe there are still teams with 'unfair' advantages that are unaccounted for.

[AlcoasPaintedBridge]

Been working a lot last couple of weeks....will be at game tomorrow.

Check out WKVL AM-850 from 1-3pm M-F for a familiar voice to join Tyler Carr.

[BCsportsfan]

I still believe it is more complicated than simply open zoning, but I also believe there are still teams with 'unfair' advantages that are unaccounted for.

 

Uh......yea, there are "unfair" advantages in Tennessee High school football.......also "unfair" advantages in the NCAA and NFL? Some teams have better programs made up of better overall talent, coaching and facilities. you WILL never have a "level playing field".............

[Govolsknox]

The argument consistently presented in this thread is that the open zone status for Alcoa, Maryville, Oak Ridge, etc. gives these teams an overwhelming advantage. The premise is open zone talent alone is enough to provide an unfair advantage over other schools.

 

 

Scot, you make some good points about the importance of many factors contributing to any championship caliber team's success. You have specifically taked about the Alcoa program. I don't think anyone questions the work ethic, coaching, community support, etc. of Alcoa football.

 

However, the part of your last post that I quoted above simply does not accurately summarize what the argument has been in this thread regarding open zoning. First, I have never described open zoning as an overwhelming advantage. But it is an advantage to enlarge a school's talent pool and the TSSAA has acted numerous times to level the playing field in situations involving size of talent pool. Secondly, I don't think anyone has or would suggest that open zone talent alone makes a championship program. You need look no further than Heritage to see that it takes more than open zoning to produce a team able to consistently compete for championships.

 

If you consider the issue of the size of a school's enrollment, even though Heritage has a much larger talent pool to work with, Alcoa would be the overwhelming favorite if they played. Never-the-less, the TSSAA still places Heritage in a higher classification due to the size of their student body which is the talent pool from which their players are selected. Another example using a program we are both familiar with: Regardless of whether CAK being a private school is an overwhelming advantage or not, the TSSAA saw that private schools have some advantage and instituted a multiplier, even though CAK has never defeated Alcoa. The TSSAA has acted in the past based on the potential advantage, regardless of whether one specific school's success (or lack of success) is related to that advantage.

 

The open zone issue boils down to a few basic questions.

 

1. Does having open zoning enlarge the potential talent pool?

 

2. Does a larger talent pool give a program an advantage over a smaller talent pool?

 

3. Has the TSSAA consistently attempted to address issues to level the playing field where some teams have a larger talent pool to work with over other teams?

 

The answer to these 3 questions is a definite yes. And with that in mind, I don't believe the TSSAA will or should give special treatment to open zone schools. This issue should be handled in a manner consistent with other similar issues where the TSSAA has acted in the past.

 

On a more important note, I'm looking forward to seeing everyone Tuesday night. I don't guess we could get lucky enough that they have band burgers at BB games do they?

[Govolsknox]

I still believe it is more complicated than simply open zoning, but I also believe there are still teams with 'unfair' advantages that are unaccounted for.

 

Uh......yea, there are "unfair" advantages in Tennessee High school football.......also "unfair" advantages in the NCAA and NFL? Some teams have better programs made up of better overall talent, coaching and facilities. you WILL never have a "level playing field".............

 

Agreed, there will never be a completely level playing field. But consider the NCAA since you brought it up. There are limits on how many scholarship players a team can have, how many players can be signed in a given year, numerous restrictions on who, how, when a school can recruit players, etc. The NCAA also attempts to create a reasonably level playing field.

 

IMHO, the TSSAA just needs to be consistent. Either deal with this just as they have dealt with other similar issues, or just give up and say it's impossible and do away with D2, multipliers, and classifications.

[jangel]

Uh......yea, there are "unfair" advantages in Tennessee High school football.......also "unfair" advantages in the NCAA and NFL? Some teams have better programs made up of better overall talent, coaching and facilities. you WILL never have a "level playing field".............

 

It may be true there will never be a "level playing field". However, the TSSAA will continue to strive toward that goal, and should. Saying it will never happen is no excuse to give up trying.

 

You even admit there are unfair advantages in your post. If no action should be taken against them, then why have any classifications or multiplier/zoning/transfer rules in the first place? Let's just get rid of Division II while we're at it as well. Would you feel the same if your team wasn't the one winning six straight championships? I doubt it.

 

Goknox, referring to your previous reply to my earlier post, if a county has multiple schools the effect of distributed talent pool should already be taken into affect by the lower actual enrollment of those schools. Sorry to reply so late.