CPA moving to Div. II?

[FadePattern]

The benefits are you get to play schools that are like you - enrollment and otherwise.

The benefits are that you do not get multiplied and have to play schools that are sometimes twice as big as you are (or in one case that I know at the end of the last 4 year classification - 3.2 times the size).

The benefits are that everytime you win a game - no one starts hurling the recruiting word and posting on here that you do not belong with them.

I agree. I certainly did not mean it as a jab at CPA. It just seems that some teams that have struggled in Div.I (for the reasons listed above) have made the move to Div.II and seen more success.

[coachrus]

The benefits are you get to play schools that are like you - enrollment and otherwise.

The benefits are that you do not get multiplied and have to play schools that are sometimes twice as big as you are (or in one case that I know at the end of the last 4 year classification - 3.2 times the size).

The benefits are that everytime you win a game - no one starts hurling the recruiting word and posting on here that you do not belong with them.

 

CPA has an enrollment of about 320. The 1.8 multiplier puts them at the bottom of 3A. However, with the crazy combination of the 4A teams in the same district, they have to play teams with 1100 students. Additionally, the metro Nashville teams get to recruit players from schools that do not play football such as Hume-Fogg and MLK so their "effective" enrollment pool is more like 1500 - 1600.

[rollredroll]

Is there really any hard, consistent evidence that a private moving from DI to DII would have it easier? I don't see it. Sure, one could point out DA as an example, but one could also point out that Goodpasture's two post-split titles came when moving from DII to DI. There are multiple examples for/against this theory. If it truly is easier to move to DII, then the DI multiplier is too high. I think private school success (titles, deep runs) is going to be cyclical and largely dependent on where a school is in a talent curve and not so much the Division in which it plays.

 

CPA has a good program, but we are gradually creeping away from those late 90s/early 2000 teams that were sending multiple players to the SEC (in other words, "this ain't your father's CPA"). And all other things being equal (i.e., factoring out any abnormal talent levels in a given year), the title paths in the current smaller DII division format are going to go largely through Webb and ECS. Sure, the USJs and CPAs of the world would/are going to be in the mix (and St. George's, which I think has had a modest impact on MUS - not so much to make MUS bad as it has been to make St. George's good), but I think these schools have a little extra something (enrollment for one, also out-of-region scheduling) that is going to give them an edge until another program breaks through on a consistent level. I certainly don't mean to disparage any of the other schools - heck, my wife is a USJ (OHA) grad, so I have no axe to grind - but I'm not convinced that the smaller DII class is necessarily the place to flee as a safe haven to have an easier go of it.

Edited October 7, 2010 by rollredroll

[silverpie]

CPA has an enrollment of about 320. The 1.8 multiplier puts them at the bottom of 3A. However, with the crazy combination of the 4A teams in the same district, they have to play teams with 1100 students. Additionally, the metro Nashville teams get to recruit players from schools that do not play football such as Hume-Fogg and MLK so their "effective" enrollment pool is more like 1500 - 1600.

 

Actually, only certain specific Metro schools get to do that. For football, it's LEAD Academy to East Lit, Middle College to Glencliff, School of the Arts to Hillsboro, Big Picture and Hume-Fogg to Hillwood, MLK to Pearl-Cohn--plus one Division II co-op, USN to Donelson Christian. For others, LEAD still goes to East Lit, Middle College to Hillwood, Big Picture to Hume-Fogg, and School of the Arts to MLK.

 

That said, I would agree that co-ops should be classified based on the combined enrollment.

[eers]

Is there really any hard, consistent evidence that a private moving from DI to DII would have it easier? I don't see it. Sure, one could point out DA as an example, but one could also point out that Goodpasture's two post-split titles came when moving from DII to DI. There are multiple examples for/against this theory. If it truly is easier to move to DII, then the DI multiplier is too high. I think private school success (titles, deep runs) is going to be cyclical and largely dependent on where a school is in a talent curve and not so much the Division in which it plays.

 

CPA has a good program, but we are gradually creeping away from those late 90s/early 2000 teams that were sending multiple players to the SEC (in other words, "this ain't your father's CPA"). And all other things being equal (i.e., factoring out any abnormal talent levels in a given year), the title paths in the current smaller DII division format are going to go largely through Webb and ECS. Sure, the USJs and CPAs of the world would/are going to be in the mix (and St. George's, which I think has had a modest impact on MUS - not so much to make MUS bad as it has been to make St. George's good), but I think these schools have a little extra something (enrollment for one, also out-of-region scheduling) that is going to give them an edge until another program breaks through on a consistent level. I certainly don't mean to disparage any of the other schools - heck, my wife is a USJ (OHA) grad, so I have no axe to grind - but I'm not convinced that the smaller DII class is necessarily the place to flee as a safe haven to have an easier go of it.

 

As I said before, there are some good schools in the smaller DII classification, however I don't think it is as competitive ever week as what CPA is facing now.

[coachrus]

Is there really any hard, consistent evidence that a private moving from DI to DII would have it easier? I don't see it. Sure, one could point out DA as an example, but one could also point out that Goodpasture's two post-split titles came when moving from DII to DI. There are multiple examples for/against this theory. If it truly is easier to move to DII, then the DI multiplier is too high. I think private school success (titles, deep runs) is going to be cyclical and largely dependent on where a school is in a talent curve and not so much the Division in which it plays.

 

CPA has a good program, but we are gradually creeping away from those late 90s/early 2000 teams that were sending multiple players to the SEC (in other words, "this ain't your father's CPA"). And all other things being equal (i.e., factoring out any abnormal talent levels in a given year), the title paths in the current smaller DII division format are going to go largely through Webb and ECS. Sure, the USJs and CPAs of the world would/are going to be in the mix (and St. George's, which I think has had a modest impact on MUS - not so much to make MUS bad as it has been to make St. George's good), but I think these schools have a little extra something (enrollment for one, also out-of-region scheduling) that is going to give them an edge until another program breaks through on a consistent level. I certainly don't mean to disparage any of the other schools - heck, my wife is a USJ (OHA) grad, so I have no axe to grind - but I'm not convinced that the smaller DII class is necessarily the place to flee as a safe haven to have an easier go of it.

 

 

What are the private school multipliers in other states? I've heard that they are between 1.25 and 1.3 but I do not know that to be a fact. If so, why is Tennessee's so high at 1.8? Additionally, when you combine classifications (1A&2A, 3A&4A, 5A&6A) you further penalize the private schools that are in the 3A and 5A division.

 

With the current system so stacked against a private school like CPA, I can certainly understand why they would consider moving to Division II.

[coachrus]

Is there really any hard, consistent evidence that a private moving from DI to DII would have it easier? I don't see it. Sure, one could point out DA as an example, but one could also point out that Goodpasture's two post-split titles came when moving from DII to DI. There are multiple examples for/against this theory. If it truly is easier to move to DII, then the DI multiplier is too high. I think private school success (titles, deep runs) is going to be cyclical and largely dependent on where a school is in a talent curve and not so much the Division in which it plays.

 

CPA has a good program, but we are gradually creeping away from those late 90s/early 2000 teams that were sending multiple players to the SEC (in other words, "this ain't your father's CPA"). And all other things being equal (i.e., factoring out any abnormal talent levels in a given year), the title paths in the current smaller DII division format are going to go largely through Webb and ECS. Sure, the USJs and CPAs of the world would/are going to be in the mix (and St. George's, which I think has had a modest impact on MUS - not so much to make MUS bad as it has been to make St. George's good), but I think these schools have a little extra something (enrollment for one, also out-of-region scheduling) that is going to give them an edge until another program breaks through on a consistent level. I certainly don't mean to disparage any of the other schools - heck, my wife is a USJ (OHA) grad, so I have no axe to grind - but I'm not convinced that the smaller DII class is necessarily the place to flee as a safe haven to have an easier go of it.

 

Also, it is hard to compare the CPA teams from ten years ago to the present since the earlier teams were playing 1A teams versus the 3A/4A teams that they have to play now.

[rollredroll]

Also, it is hard to compare the CPA teams from ten years ago to the present since the earlier teams were playing 1A teams versus the 3A/4A teams that they have to play now.

 

Good point, although while CPA is playing bigger schools now versus ten years ago, that does not diminish the fact that CPA is down considerably in talent from ten years ago as well. The 2000 and 2002 state title teams at CPA were rated in the top 15 across all classifications in both of those years. They would have been prohibitive favorites over the Maplewoods and Pearl-Cohns of that era, and that was an era in which the enrollment gap was even larger than it is now. CPA’s 2000 enrollment per the TSSAA was 28% of that of Pearl-Cohn, 24% of that of Maplewood. Per the 2008 enrollments, CPA’s enrollment was 48% of that of Pearl-Cohn, 32% of Maplewood’s.

 

As for multipliers in other states, I don’t know them off the top of my head, but Tennessee’s is high – maybe the highest there is among states with multipliers.

 

The original premise of this thread was that a move to DII would benefit CPA from a football perspective. I don’t necessarily disagree that its schedule would be a little bit more manageable if they moved to the smaller DII division. However, I don’t think CPA should necessarily rush to clear space in the trophy case for some more gold balls in football. A half-dozen or so of the schools in that Class will be larger, and at least half of those are, in a typical year, going to put somewhat stronger teams on the field if tradition and trends continue.

 

A more important question, is how have the schools that have moved from DI to DII athletically fared academically and financially? Are the whiz kids who need aid being squeezed out for the sake of athletics? Has the amount of aid offered increased, or is it being redistributed?

 

 

[KWoodroof]

Good point, although while CPA is playing bigger schools now versus ten years ago, that does not diminish the fact that CPA is down considerably in talent from ten years ago as well. The 2000 and 2002 state title teams at CPA were rated in the top 15 across all classifications in both of those years. They would have been prohibitive favorites over the Maplewoods and Pearl-Cohns of that era, and that was an era in which the enrollment gap was even larger than it is now. CPA’s 2000 enrollment per the TSSAA was 28% of that of Pearl-Cohn, 24% of that of Maplewood. Per the 2008 enrollments, CPA’s enrollment was 48% of that of Pearl-Cohn, 32% of Maplewood’s.

 

As for multipliers in other states, I don’t know them off the top of my head, but Tennessee’s is high – maybe the highest there is among states with multipliers.

 

The original premise of this thread was that a move to DII would benefit CPA from a football perspective. I don’t necessarily disagree that its schedule would be a little bit more manageable if they moved to the smaller DII division. However, I don’t think CPA should necessarily rush to clear space in the trophy case for some more gold balls in football. A half-dozen or so of the schools in that Class will be larger, and at least half of those are, in a typical year, going to put somewhat stronger teams on the field if tradition and trends continue.

 

A more important question, is how have the schools that have moved from DI to DII athletically fared academically and financially? Are the whiz kids who need aid being squeezed out for the sake of athletics? Has the amount of aid offered increased, or is it being redistributed?

Sadly, you don't post a lot anymore, but it's still very insightful and well-written.

[rollredroll]

Sadly, you don't post a lot anymore, but it's still very insightful and well-written.

 

Sadly, my enthusiasm for posting was dampened earlier this season by all the "come and git you some" back-and-forth with the East Tennessee brain trust.

 

We can still maintain our texting relationship on Friday nights during games, though. That completes me.

[fiftyfifty]

As I said before, there are some good schools in the smaller DII classification, however I don't think it is as competitive ever week as what CPA is facing now.

As competitive every week is what they are facing now, maybe not, but Knoxville Webb if they stay in the same classification will provide CPA with all the competition they want and probably more. I just hope if they move to Div II, that fianancial aid is used as it should be, for those that truly need it, whether they play sports or not. Thats whats most important.

[PHargis]

Good point, although while CPA is playing bigger schools now versus ten years ago, that does not diminish the fact that CPA is down considerably in talent from ten years ago as well. The 2000 and 2002 state title teams at CPA were rated in the top 15 across all classifications in both of those years. They would have been prohibitive favorites over the Maplewoods and Pearl-Cohns of that era, and that was an era in which the enrollment gap was even larger than it is now. CPA’s 2000 enrollment per the TSSAA was 28% of that of Pearl-Cohn, 24% of that of Maplewood. Per the 2008 enrollments, CPA’s enrollment was 48% of that of Pearl-Cohn, 32% of Maplewood’s.

 

As for multipliers in other states, I don’t know them off the top of my head, but Tennessee’s is high – maybe the highest there is among states with multipliers.

 

The original premise of this thread was that a move to DII would benefit CPA from a football perspective. I don’t necessarily disagree that its schedule would be a little bit more manageable if they moved to the smaller DII division. However, I don’t think CPA should necessarily rush to clear space in the trophy case for some more gold balls in football. A half-dozen or so of the schools in that Class will be larger, and at least half of those are, in a typical year, going to put somewhat stronger teams on the field if tradition and trends continue.

 

A more important question, is how have the schools that have moved from DI to DII athletically fared academically and financially? Are the whiz kids who need aid being squeezed out for the sake of athletics? Has the amount of aid offered increased, or is it being redistributed?

IMO, you are missing the reason for reclassifying as far as CPA is concerned. And it has nothing to do with football. Could it have something to do with another sport and they eventually really don't care which classification in D2 that they play in, in fact, they would like to play in the large school. Their thrust is Basketball. Football would just be iceing on the cake. Aid is another issue and Overton is the other school population that could be involved. Just an opinion. IMO, CPA would not be happy in small school in anything because they thrive on a larger goal(goals), unless its changed.