Multiplier Question

[pepvol]

Sorry APB, been out of town. I cannot add more fact than you have alreay laid out. Open zone is legal. Period. I am very disappointed to see this topic surface again. I will say I expected it. In fact, after the game Friday, I told my seat mates that the haters would be in full force this week. Unfortunately, these witch hunts have are nothing but an attempt to tarnish a great season for Alcoa and a great effort by a fine group of young men. But why one must ask?

 

CAK parents, as a lot, are well off highly successful people. They are very used to getting whatever they want in life. Either via hard work, family money, or political influence bought with their huge bank rolls, they have successfully achieved what they want throughout life. Yet a State Championship in football eludes them.

 

To be fair, CAK has tried to do it the right way first. Hire a top level coach, hire every former UT coach or player to coach you can find (BTW, do their kids attend CAK? Or do they get reduced or free tution in exchange for their annual services?) New facilities, top equipment and unis. You even bought a blow up helmet! Yet, the championship still eludes you. Someone must be breaking the rules!!

 

For all your well finanaced effort, you still cannot beat a lowly diverse public school with a median family income of less than $45K per year. Some of you hire personal trainers for your child. You buy the finest equipment, the best clothes and the finest athletic shoes. All this with great expectations of elite performance. But alas, your team still gets beat. Worse, you are getting beat by the common folk. You cannot let this stand! You deserve this! You have done everything money can buy!

 

You accepted it at first. You talked about how playing Alcoa had made you better, more physical and faster. You talked about closing the gap. And you did. You closed it, but never bridged it with some of your best teams ever.

 

It is quite clear what is happening here. You are beginning a grass roots campaign to get a rule change in place to get your overdue championship. You will get it. You will not be denied. I hope you get it. And when you do, look down at the ring on your kid's finger and remember this..... you changed the rules so you did not have to play the best anymore.

 

The only thing wrong with this post ..... is I wish I had wrote it !

 

No matter how you guys spin it , and I'll admit the CAK dads are good with words, you guys trying to change the rules after 50 plus years ( yes there's been tuition students all across the state forever! ) are trying to take a shortcut . Maryville and Alcoa have been playing for around 84 years...since 1926.... Our communities live and breath Football , and not just since Quarles and Rankin showed up , but long , long before . I can promise you there was just as much passion about this game 30 plus years ago as there is today . There is no way you can build what we have in a few years or by changing a few rules . I want to beat Alcoa more than any team on earth , but when we're not playing I pull for them , because Maryville & Alcoa are just about 4 miles apart and we have all grown up together . This is Maryville and Alcoa's secret ... not trying to avoid a certain team , but actually making each other better . If you guys do succeed in getting Alcoa off of your schedule I'm sure you will get your ring , but your team will probably not be as good as it would have been by playing Alcoa every year .... and everyone will know that you had to change the rules to get one .

[jake]

I need to ask a question. Are there just not enough private schools in the state to just move all the privates in a classification by themselves? I don't research all states but in MS, AL, LA, AR, and I believe GA, private schools do not play in the same regions with publics. They may play each other in out of region games but when it comes to regions and championships, the privates play the privates and the publics play the publics. If this were the case in TN, then the multiplier would not be an issue. The privates would have to be split up into probably three classifications according to size and they may have to travel farther across the state to play each other, but for a school where kids are paying between $8000 and $20,000 per year for tuition, this should not be a problem.

 

If this was done, then TSSAA could come in and make a ruling for every county in the state on open or closed zoning. I am not lobbying for either, but just make a ruling one way or the other and let it stand for every public school in the state. This seems to be working in our neighboring states so can anyone enlighten me as to why it would not work here?

[mcwrestler]

Droid does double post....whoops.

Edited December 9, 2010 by mcwrestler

[mcwrestler]

I need to ask a question. Are there just not enough private schools in the state to just move all the privates in a classification by themselves? I don't research all states but in MS, AL, LA, AR, and I believe GA, private schools do not play in the same regions with publics. They may play each other in out of region games but when it comes to regions and championships, the privates play the privates and the publics play the publics. If this were the case in TN, then the multiplier would not be an issue. The privates would have to be split up into probably three classifications according to size and they may have to travel farther across the state to play each other, but for a school where kids are paying between $8000 and $20,000 per year for tuition, this should not be a problem.

 

If this was done, then TSSAA could come in and make a ruling for every county in the state on open or closed zoning. I am not lobbying for either, but just make a ruling one way or the other and let it stand for every public school in the state. This seems to be working in our neighboring states so can anyone enlighten me as to why it would not work here?

TSSAA cannot tell a school if they can be open zoned or not. Open zoning is done for education, you know, the thing all schools are there for. If you want to add a multiplier to Alcoa, go for it. Just be prepared for a blanket rule such as: Any school accepting applications for non-district students and accepting tuition students will be subject to a multiplier in all sports.

 

The # of schools this would hit is huge. Many schools would suffer in many sports, Alcoa would win still.

 

I also don't agree with the multiplier on CAK. 1.8 seems steep.

[silverpie]

I need to ask a question. Are there just not enough private schools in the state to just move all the privates in a classification by themselves? I don't research all states but in MS, AL, LA, AR, and I believe GA, private schools do not play in the same regions with publics. They may play each other in out of region games but when it comes to regions and championships, the privates play the privates and the publics play the publics. If this were the case in TN, then the multiplier would not be an issue. The privates would have to be split up into probably three classifications according to size and they may have to travel farther across the state to play each other, but for a school where kids are paying between $8000 and $20,000 per year for tuition, this should not be a problem.

 

What you are saying here is mostly false. To go down the list:

Mississippi comes the closest; they traditionally allowed parochial schools to join, but not independent schools. They have now loosened that rule to admit any accredited school. A few have made the move over, but most still choose to play in the MAIS (formerly MPSA).

 

Arkansas and Louisiana both allow private schools in their state to compete with the public schools, but some compete in the MAIS instead (likely because they have rivalries with the MAIS schools).

 

Alabama and Georgia also have publics and privates in full competition with each other, but each also has a voluntary private-school league. (Privates do have a 1.35 multiplier in Alabama, and private schools smaller than 150 are locked out of the GHSA.)

 

The list of states with prohibitions on private schools in the NFHS member association is as follows:

North Carolina (except that parochial non-boarding schools are allowed)

Virginia

Maryland

District of Columbia

Texas (exception made for two highly unusual cases)

 

(South Carolina is in Mississippi's position--most privates still haven't come over even though they're now allowed to.)

 

And New Jersey has a highly mixed system: in general, there is a public/nonpublic separation for team sports, but not for individual sports. Some small sports are not separated (gymnastics, fencing), and some of the major sports have a Tournament of Champions.

 

As for tuition, I just checked the two privates nearest where I live, and they are both below your range (one is $7k and the other $6k) even at high school level (they also have younger students who pay less).

[volscott]

Sorry APB, been out of town. I cannot add more fact than you have alreay laid out. Open zone is legal. Period. I am very disappointed to see this topic surface again. I will say I expected it. In fact, after the game Friday, I told my seat mates that the haters would be in full force this week. Unfortunately, these witch hunts have are nothing but an attempt to tarnish a great season for Alcoa and a great effort by a fine group of young men. But why one must ask?

 

CAK parents, as a lot, are well off highly successful people. They are very used to getting whatever they want in life. Either via hard work, family money, or political influence bought with their huge bank rolls, they have successfully achieved what they want throughout life. Yet a State Championship in football eludes them.

 

To be fair, CAK has tried to do it the right way first. Hire a top level coach, hire every former UT coach or player to coach you can find (BTW, do their kids attend CAK? Or do they get reduced or free tution in exchange for their annual services?) New facilities, top equipment and unis. You even bought a blow up helmet! Yet, the championship still eludes you. Someone must be breaking the rules!!

 

For all your well finanaced effort, you still cannot beat a lowly diverse public school with a median family income of less than $45K per year. Some of you hire personal trainers for your child. You buy the finest equipment, the best clothes and the finest athletic shoes. All this with great expectations of elite performance. But alas, your team still gets beat. Worse, you are getting beat by the common folk. You cannot let this stand! You deserve this! You have done everything money can buy!

 

You accepted it at first. You talked about how playing Alcoa had made you better, more physical and faster. You talked about closing the gap. And you did. You closed it, but never bridged it with some of your best teams ever.

 

It is quite clear what is happening here. You are beginning a grass roots campaign to get a rule change in place to get your overdue championship. You will get it. You will not be denied. I hope you get it. And when you do, look down at the ring on your kid's finger and remember this..... you changed the rules so you did not have to play the best anymore.

 

Wow, where to start.

 

First, while open zoning has been around for ever, a multiplier to "handicap" privates hasn't. Therefore the combination of the two creates a brand new environment--not a 50 year old issue that is just being questioned due to Alcoa.

 

Second, I can't say it much more but I'll try one more time. Our guys have nothing but respect for Alcoa--THEY HAVE NOT BROKEN ANY RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!. They beat us fair and square multiple times. My son loved playing them and used them every year to decide how good we (and he) had become. That will still be the case no matter what happens.

 

Third, I bet we could compare football budgets and you'd be really surprised. I'll bet you a BOH lunch that C. Rankin makes more money than C. Bradley(and that's ok, not an accusation). CAK has build its enrollment off of its mission statement and academics not huge athletic budgets. I'm not saying we get by on nothing but the idea that we are rolling out huge dollars on football, above and beyond what Maryville, Alcoa, Greenville, etc are just isn't accurate. THERE IS NO ACCUSATION THAT ANY OF THESE SCHOOLS IS DOING ANYTHING WRONG IN MY STATEMENT EITHER!!!!.

 

Fourth, this rule will never get changed by TSSAA. If we want to talk about bias, I think we all know there is bias in TSSAA against private schools. And there is some justification for it---scholarships, illegal recruiting, etc. have been done by some before which led to DII. I think this started as a simple question (not by a CAK supporter)--Is this a good/fair/appropriate rule (the multiplier) given there is no difference in how an open zone school can attract students vs a DI private? I still haven't seen a real answer. I have seen some name calling, some "you private school guys can't take it" sort of stuff, etc. Honestly, I may have missed it-if so someone can direct me back to a particular post I'll gladly review.

 

Fifth, I think the rule change has already happened-the implemenation of the multiplier. The question is not should we change a rule to give DI schools an advantage, the question is "is this relatively new rule correct?"

 

Sixth, APB, what will we do without your pictures?

[jake]

What you are saying here is mostly false. To go down the list:

Mississippi comes the closest; they traditionally allowed parochial schools to join, but not independent schools. They have now loosened that rule to admit any accredited school. A few have made the move over, but most still choose to play in the MAIS (formerly MPSA).

 

Arkansas and Louisiana both allow private schools in their state to compete with the public schools, but some compete in the MAIS instead (likely because they have rivalries with the MAIS schools).

 

Alabama and Georgia also have publics and privates in full competition with each other, but each also has a voluntary private-school league. (Privates do have a 1.35 multiplier in Alabama, and private schools smaller than 150 are locked out of the GHSA.)

 

The list of states with prohibitions on private schools in the NFHS member association is as follows:

North Carolina (except that parochial non-boarding schools are allowed)

Virginia

Maryland

District of Columbia

Texas (exception made for two highly unusual cases)

 

(South Carolina is in Mississippi's position--most privates still haven't come over even though they're now allowed to.)

 

And New Jersey has a highly mixed system: in general, there is a public/nonpublic separation for team sports, but not for individual sports. Some small sports are not separated (gymnastics, fencing), and some of the major sports have a Tournament of Champions.

 

As for tuition, I just checked the two privates nearest where I live, and they are both below your range (one is $7k and the other $6k) even at high school level (they also have younger students who pay less).

[BullDawgGirl03]

To the Milan sheep, I say, you are one of us weather you like it or not, the last two years Goodpasture fans have said the same thing about your school. You ARE open zone, no matter how you smother, cover, chunk, slice, dice, step on or puree it. Seems like there was a QB there who's residency was called into question if I remember well.

 

 

According to the Tennessee Board of Education, Milan has closed zoning, not matter how anyone else wants to smother, cover, chunk, slice, dice, step on, puree or whine about it.

 

As for the QB, nope residency was only an issue to bystanders. Mom and dad are divorced, he moved in with his dad when he was in high school. Far as I know, still lives there.

 

There was another player (I think it was back in '05, but I could be wrong) his residency caused Milan to forfeit 5 games. Why....because HE WASN'T LIVING IN MILAN'S DISTRICT!!! If Milan was open, it wouldn't have been an issue.

 

And to you APB.....

 

Brick Wall, meet Alcoa's Painted Bridge.....you shall have LOADS to talk about!

 

I shall miss our "discussions"..... <3 "Sweetheart"

[mcwrestler]

According to the Tennessee Board of Education, Milan has closed zoning, not matter how anyone else wants to smother, cover, chunk, slice, dice, step on, puree or whine about it.

 

As for the QB, nope residency was only an issue to bystanders. Mom and dad are divorced, he moved in with his dad when he was in high school. Far as I know, still lives there.

 

There was another player (I think it was back in '05, but I could be wrong) his residency caused Milan to forfeit 5 games. Why....because HE WASN'T LIVING IN MILAN'S DISTRICT!!! If Milan was open, it wouldn't have been an issue.

 

And to you APB.....

 

Brick Wall, meet Alcoa's Painted Bridge.....you shall have LOADS to talk about!

 

I shall miss our "discussions"..... <3 "Sweetheart"

You apparently know brick wall very well.

 

Alcoa is open zone. Milan is "closed" but allows for out of district students that pay tuition.

 

Therefore, Milan does accept non resident students.

 

Not a big deal, but don't play word games when the procedures for an out of district student to attend Milan is in THEIR policy.

 

Under the rules it would be possible for a stud ball player from an opposing school district to attend Milan.

 

What was the reason behind the forfeiting of the wins?

[BullDawgGirl03]

You apparently know brick wall very well.

 

Alcoa is open zone. Milan is "closed" but allows for out of district students that pay tuition.

 

Therefore, Milan does accept non resident students.

 

Not a big deal, but don't play word games when the procedures for an out of district student to attend Milan is in THEIR policy.

 

Under the rules it would be possible for a stud ball player from an opposing school district to attend Milan.

 

What was the reason behind the forfeiting of the wins?

 

Milan does not have tuition, and I never said Milan doesn't accept any out of district students. According to "No child left behind" they are required by law to accept minority students who are moving from a district where their race is a majority, and their race is a minority in MSSD.

 

Open means ANY student can apply there and attend if space if avaliable. NOT the case with Milan. If you don't meet the criteria set, then your application is n/a. If there were grey areas, Milan would be semi-open...I'll give you that. But it is NOT completely open. If it were, my cousin could have attend Milan. But since she resides in the Bradford district, is not a minority student, was not enrolled prior to 2004-2005, and does not have any siblings that attended MSSD prior to 2004-2005 then she was denied entry into MSSD. If you'd all like, I'll dig around in some papers this weekend and post the letter her parents got in the mail.

 

As for the reason behind forfeiting, it was because the students family was building a house in Milan but hadn't completed it prior to school starting. They rented a house, and used that address as their residency when actually they lived in Jackson. Milan SSD was fined $500, (since it was someone in Jackson that reported it, Milan recieved the maximum penalty) and forced to forfeit the games that the student played in which was 5. If Milan was an open district, he could have simply attended Milan from Jackson, no problems.

[mcwrestler]

Milan does not have tuition, and I never said Milan doesn't accept any out of district students. According to "No child left behind" they are required by law to accept minority students who are moving from a district where their race is a majority, and their race is a minority in MSSD.

 

Open means ANY student can apply there and attend if space if avaliable. NOT the case with Milan. If you don't meet the criteria set, then your application is n/a. If there were grey areas, Milan would be semi-open...I'll give you that. But it is NOT completely open. If it were, my cousin could have attend Milan. But since she resides in the Bradford district, is not a minority student, was not enrolled prior to 2004-2005, and does not have any siblings that attended MSSD prior to 2004-2005 then she was denied entry into MSSD. If you'd all like, I'll dig around in some papers this weekend and post the letter her parents got in the mail.

 

As for the reason behind forfeiting, it was because the students family was building a house in Milan but hadn't completed it prior to school starting. They rented a house, and used that address as their residency when actually they lived in Jackson. Milan SSD was fined $500, (since it was someone in Jackson that reported it, Milan recieved the maximum penalty) and forced to forfeit the games that the student played in which was 5. If Milan was an open district, he could have simply attended Milan from Jackson, no problems.

 

I was rather certain in the policy posted, or the following page it mentioned paying fees in addition the the application fee paid when it is turned in.

 

Alcoa also has strict criteria. You must be a good student both grade and behavior wise. It also depends on room available. Alcoa does not just take everyone.

 

Where can I find milan listed as closed and see alcoa listed as open? I am just curious.

 

Again, I have no issue with a multiplier if everyone wants to enforce it equally. If you accept any out of district I believe the TSSAA would treat it as such.

 

I respect the Milan program, and have nothing against them. I just want everything called what it is.

[Indian]

Fourth, this rule will never get changed by TSSAA. If we want to talk about bias, I think we all know there is bias in TSSAA against private schools.

 

 

If there was bias against private schools, the TSSAA would have moved them all into Division II a few years ago when the majority of state schools voted in favor.