2012 last year for Traditional State Tournament?

[sweeptheleg]

Not being insulting just being honest. How does splitting the divisions make your administration,community or school board come ip with funds? The problems you state are the same ones the big schools face but their problem is multiplied because they have way more kids and expenses. Are you implying that a school system says, "let's give Soddy money because they are big but let's not give Brainard money because they are small? That my friend is laughable. There are many dedicated coaches, supporters in this sport regardless of size. What wrestling is SUPPOSED to teach is to roll your sleeves up and get to work. Sick, hurt, Poor, it doesn't matter because like RussianBear stated a single leg is a single leg no matter how big your school is. The fact Is the successful teams have outworked the rest with the same 0 funding you get. They do it it in youth club, middle school and freestyle and in high school. They BUILT their programs from the ground up and sacrifice year round not just during the high school season. Their wrestlers see , understand and respect the hard work that those before them have put in. They know if you want something you go get it and don't make excuses. I guess that's whats called life lessons and I salute all that have done so regardless of school size.

[russianbear]

I coach at a small school. I really don't care one way or the other. I am personally for the split but that's just my opinion. But, for you to get on here and say that those schools aren't "real" wrestling teams and that they aren't "real" coaches is insulting. Some of those schools struggle to keep a coach, they wrestle on borrowed mats, and the "fake" coach often times pays the costs of having a wrestling team out of his own pocket. I personally know many of those coaches and several of them rent a building on their own money just so those kids will have a place to wrestle. If their team gets a hotel room, the coach is paying for it. The simple fact is that the state wrestling tournament is dominated year-in and your-out by the largest schools in the state of Tennessee. Every once in a while an A/AA school will get a hot streak or a few transfers and they will pop up on the radar. That run has rarely lasted more than a few years.

 

For you to say that everyone in TN is on equal footing or is looking to produce D1 All-Americans is laughable. By your argument that success is defined by D1 All-Americans, then we are all failures and have been failures for the last 45 years of TN wrestling. We've had 5-6 D1 All-Americans out of 3,780 medalists.

 

Here's the real question, instead of deriding others...what is your plan for growing wrestling at the A/AA level in Tennessee. The A/AA level is where the growth of wrestling will come from.....not AAA. How do you attract schools to the sport? My guess is that you don't have an answer. The status quo is working for most of the AAA schools in this state and they are not really interested in seeing the sport grow.

 

Randy Shelton

Greeneville Wrestling

Hello Randy, first off, you are mixing your response towards a couple of different posters. I, myself have the utmost respect for ALL wrestling coaches at any level and would never criticize or demean any coach or program that is legitimate. If you could hit the "reply" button, to the particular poster you have a beef with, when you post, the readers won't get confused.

 

I do however have a goal when I coach. I understand that not all are like me. I think big, not small. I shoot for the moon. My goal is to produce state champions. My goal is to put people into D1 college wrestling programs. Do I have those on my team that will never achieve this? Of course. But it doesn't change my goal. I want everyone of my wrestlers to strive to be the best they can be. I measure success by their daily routine. Not the end result.

 

I think we can all admit that having a solid kids program is the key to grow the sport. When kids get in highschool already knowing how to wrestle they are not too intimidated to join the team. It always doesn't take away from the kids already knowing how to wrestle if the coach doesn't have to spend three weeks teaching how to not lock hands.

 

Is it easy to start a kids club? Of course not. It takes people. It takes money. There are no easy answers. But watering down our awesome three day event I don't believe is the answer.

Edited February 22, 2011 by russianbear

[ramseyl]

Just my two cents but, 1) what fans want should not be of high concern in high school athletics, what is best for student athletes should. 2)You should not base what is best for a sport by how it will effect the small percentage that is good enough to move on to the next level, (I have coached around 200 hundred kids and have only had a hand full that recieved attention from college coaches) 3) if you compare schools with basketball and wreslting small schools have the largest difference, I do believe a split which would encourage opportunity for small schools to compete will allow for that difference to become smaller. 4) but if you split small school and large school form a 32 man bracket to a 24 and 8 man bracket that does not grow anything it just splits it. In our region small schools recieved 6 bids to go to the state tourny, which left 50 spots for big schools, if we go to a 24/8 bracket the large schools in an already enormous region will lose 14 spots while the small schools will only gain 8 spots (not likely going to cause that much growth)

 

I do not know the answer, just curious but how many teams did Georgia have pre and post split. Did it result in more kids benifiting and participating in the sport of wrestling, if so I'm for it. And btw I don't coach to stroke my ego by adding trophies or medals I do it because I want to see young kids grow into young adults and I think this sport like no other allows for that growth, and anything that get MORE KIDS from this generation out of the house, off the couch, or off the street Im for it.

[TDArtist]

No real beef. Just adding my two cents.

 

We do have wrestling from K-12 here at Greeneville and have fantastic support from the community and the school. I have outstanding middle school and high school coaches helping me. I am truly blessed.

 

My question still remains....what is the solution? How do you grow the sport at the A/AA level without throwing medals at it? I don't see a way for that to happen with adding another division. There is zero incentive at the A/AA level to start a new program. My solution is A/AA, AAA, D2 and a fully-sanctioned girl's state all going on at once. Again, my opinion. I understand others will disagree.

 

A/AA - 16 man bracket from 4 regions - top 2 go for duals.

AAA - 32 man bracket - don't mess with regions

D2 - multiple qualifiers from each school - 16 man bracket

Girls - fully sanctioned TSSAA sport

[smwwrest]

No real beef. Just adding my two cents.

 

We do have wrestling from K-12 here at Greeneville and have fantastic support from the community and the school. I have outstanding middle school and high school coaches helping me. I am truly blessed.

 

My question still remains....what is the solution? How do you grow the sport at the A/AA level without throwing medals at it? I don't see a way for that to happen with adding another division. There is zero incentive at the A/AA level to start a new program. My solution is A/AA, AAA, D2 and a fully-sanctioned girl's state all going on at once. Again, my opinion. I understand others will disagree.

 

A/AA - 16 man bracket from 4 regions - top 2 go for duals.

AAA - 32 man bracket - don't mess with regions

D2 - multiple qualifiers from each school - 16 man bracket

Girls - fully sanctioned TSSAA sport

 

I agree with the above post. Its way too logical, so it will probably never happen.

[barbwire]

I would love to see a one class system for all individual sports, but for discussions sake,

Has anyone considered an alternative? If the consensus is what it seems, and schools are to be divided up by enrollment #'s, use the following criteria

The classification of a school shall be determined on the basis of its total student

enrollment figure. Non-boundaried schools will have their total

student enrollment multiplied by 1.65.

The definition of a non-boundaried school is: Any private school, charter school, lab school, magnet school, residential school, and any public school in a multi-high school district that does not accept students from a fixed portion of the district.

(these totals are just an example, they would be adjusted to make each class close to equal in #'s)

1) Schools with enrollments of

625 and below will be Class 1A.

2) Schools with enrollments of

626 to 1251 will be Class 2A.

3) Schools with enrollments of

1252 and above will be Class 3A.

4) Classifications shall be determined

on an annual basis.

This plan would obviously include most of the D2 schools as part of the 3A classification, but some of the smaller D2's would be under the 2A classification.

This creates a 32 man bracket for each class at state.

Edited February 22, 2011 by barbwire

[ynotme]

Since the small schools appear to have trouble fielding full squads, shouldn't they reduce the number of weight classes and take more than just the champion from each region?

 

I call BS on smwwrest's claim of not enough excitement in Chattanooga. There was a huge number of local wrestling fans who attended the Chattanooga state tourney each year that are not traveling to the cow palace. Lots of local high school students also attended in Chattanooga. Nashville has not replaced this lost attendance. UTC didn't appreciate what they had in the tourney and deserved to lose it, but the environment of the event suffers at the cow palace. Creating new divisions won't address the fundimentals of the lost excitement of the cow palace.

[MisstheMat]

What's interesting to me is that a good number of the schools listed as voting yes will never benefit from this. I mean they have small wrestling programs or none at all, but have large student bodies already. So creating a new tourny for small schools won't get them wrestlers in their rooms anymore than before b/c they'll be forced to compete with the large schools still anyways b/c of Football and Basketball.

 

I went to MLK for 3 years of my highschool career and know that in a building of less than 1,000 for grades 7-12(average graduating class is barely 100) with the middle school having almost half the body(kids drop out left and right in 7th and 8th grade) there's no real chance they're ever going to compete with other metro schools like Overton/Antioch let alone region foes Franklin/Ravenwood/Indy/Brentwood, and never in their wildest dreams a Bradley/Soddy/Cleveland for state championships. This is why i thought the dual state split was awesome. But even i think that to make a seperate individual tourny is not going to be good idea. Every wrestler at MLK dreams of being it's first State Champ. They've never had a place winner higher than 4th, but I'd imagine none of us would want to win it in a watered down Tourny.

 

Do you think that Brown from Hunter's Lane's story would have been nearly the same if he wrestled against 7 wrestlers from schools that barely have enough interest to even have a team? Beating Cox at Regions and then taking state were amazing accomplishments that mean something.

 

It's an individual tournament! Every individual has the same chance to work their butts off to earn a title. You can choose to wrestle from Nov to Feb or wrestle year round. You can choose to get up at 4:30am and run the 3 miles to the nearest YMCA and lift before school, or sleep in. Yes, coaches can make a huge difference, but camps exist for a reason and if you truly want to be a champion beg and plead to go to a better school. Put in the work for your State Title, I know i didn't do all i could and have learned to live with that, but don't hand out medals and State Titles to kids because they have "set backs" to deal with.

 

Growing the sport has more to do with educating and getting the sport to the masses. If Nashville shared the love of the sport that Chatt has we wouldn't see 2k plus student body schools with only 10 or fewer wrestlers. We have to learn how to market our beloved sport to the uninformed, to the people who think WWE when they hear wrestling and not Dan Gable or locally the Simpsons. That's how we grow the sport. Get more local coverage, get tv time for big matches and tournaments throughout the state. Promote ourselves. How is that accomplished, I don't know, but that's how we get growth. NOT handing out more medals.

Edited February 22, 2011 by MisstheMat

[rcpatriot]

Sweeptheleg,

Are you a coach, or have you ever been a coach?

 

For the past 13 years I've attempted to build a program from scratch at a school with over 700 students, within a county that had never had the sport. No, I'm not a faculty member and yes I have a vast wrestling background. But does that mean I'm a "real" wrestling coach? That depends on the definition of a "real" wrestling coach. We'll come back to that shortly.

 

Our program at Kingston (considered a small school), like many, has struggled to survive due to a lack of funding, space, participation, coaches, etc. Several years ago we had one of the larger AAU programs in East TN. At that time, we had 4 coaches with over 100 kids total involved in the youth and HS program. Because of other obligations, those 4 coaches slimmed to 2. With that came the decision to drop the youth program and only have a MS and HS program. This year, we were forced to drop the MS program and only have a HS program that consisted of only 6 wrestlers (2 of which have wrestled every year since the program was started) and 1 coach. The problem at Kingston isn't an isolated problem, it's one that many programs have or are dealing with.

 

Now, to your insult. Have I ever had a HS state champion at Kingston, nope. Has my team ever qualified for the state duals, nope. Any of my wrestlers received AA status, nope. If any, or all of those makes a "real" wrestling coach, then I have failed and I've been doing it for 13 years, for the wrong reasons.

 

I'm the wrestling coach that has been their for my wrestlers, day or night to help with off the mat issues. I'm the wrestling coach that spent hourless days and nights away from my family. I'm the wrestling coach that has personally spent thousands of dollars to keep a program alive. I'm the wrestling coach that still keeps in contact with the wrestlers that I've been blessed to have throughout the years. I'm the wrestling coach that truly considers every wrestler that has come through our program as family. I'm the wrestling coach that loves and cares for my wrestlers whether they win or lose.

 

There are many other wrestling coaches in this state, small school and/or large school, that can give you the same reasons that they are coaching. I don't know if I fit the bill as a "real" wrestling coach but.....my wrestlers, past and present still call me coach and that's good enough for me.

 

Chris Adams

Kingston HS Wrestling Coach

[mjgIII]

No real beef. Just adding my two cents.

 

We do have wrestling from K-12 here at Greeneville and have fantastic support from the community and the school. I have outstanding middle school and high school coaches helping me. I am truly blessed.

 

My question still remains....what is the solution? How do you grow the sport at the A/AA level without throwing medals at it? I don't see a way for that to happen with adding another division. There is zero incentive at the A/AA level to start a new program. My solution is A/AA, AAA, D2 and a fully-sanctioned girl's state all going on at once. Again, my opinion. I understand others will disagree.

 

A/AA - 16 man bracket from 4 regions - top 2 go for duals.

AAA - 32 man bracket - don't mess with regions

D2 - multiple qualifiers from each school - 16 man bracket

Girls - fully sanctioned TSSAA sport

Why stop there? Why not REALLY grow the sport? It's only logical..

A-16 man bracket with multiple qualifiers from each school

AA-Same

AAA-32 man bracket

D2A-16 man bracket with multiple qualifiers from each school

D2AA-Same

Girls-fully sanctioned.

 

I mean, it's only fair to the single A team not to have to compete with the AA teams, and lord knows neither can compete with AAA. Actually, to be totally fair, separate Chattanooga AAA into thier own state tournament cause it sure isn't fair to the rest of the state to have to face Bradley, Cleveland, and Soddy. And while you are at it, carve out Baylor and McCallie, those boarding schools just have too much of an advantage.

 

Maybe this:

 

A-same

AA-same

AAA-32 man bracket

Cleveland/Soddy/Bradley-16 man bracket, multiple qualifiers from each school

D2A-same

D2AA-same

Baylor/McCallie-8 man bracket with multiple qualifiers from each school

 

Of course, this would be subject to change yearly if some other team got good or some team didn't get a medal for a couple of years. Oops, I forgot Christian Brothers has been getting good...well, we can address that next year.

[sweeptheleg]

Rcpatriot, I'm not sure how you felt singled out? Did anyone say your name? Obviously I have great love for the sport and all that are involved. What I meant by real teams or coaches is exactly that. People who put forth the effort regardless of the outcome. When I see the list of teams that voted I see a lot that I wouldn't consider real teams and or coaches. Teams that have a few wrestlers, no coach or somebody from the hallway looking to get their stipend. So based on your reply am I

Understanding that because of your struggle you have decided to give up and lessen the sport so the goals are more attainable? I guess your definition of a wrestler and mine are two different things. Good luck in your quest and hopefully it will now be easier for you.

[russianbear]

A few thoughts on this---one, I think we need to drop the "this is the end of the world" tone. I think everyone has to agree that the results today are not the optimum. There were not enough fans or excitement in Franklin this weekend. For those Chatt fans that will immediately say, it needs to move back to Chatt...there was not enough excitement or fans in Chatt either, especially on Wednesday to Friday, which is when UTC made us hold the tournament every other year.

 

There does appear to be a track record in other states for making more divisions. I will use the Colorado State High School Championships this past weekend. The population of the state is 1 million less than TN (6.2M TN vs 5.1M CO). With 4 classes wrestling this weekend they were able to fill the Pepsi Center in Denver. My understanding was that total attendance was approximately 17k fans. Our kids deserve the best experience that we can give them. Let's open it up, add another classification, hopefully Dad, Mom, brothers, sisters, grandma, grandpa, and the closely located uncles and cousins will show up to watch. I also suggest letting D2, since the TSSAA has chosen to separate them, bring as many wrestler per team as they want. If this means that D2 must have a regional qualifying system, then fine. I know quality wrestlers get left behind in some of these wrestling rooms due to the number of wrestlers. This will avoid the first round byes.

 

Finally, the argument that this will weaken a TN state championship. Year after year, I hear that D1 is stronger than D2 (the "jv" division, etc.), but year after year, D2 puts more wrestlers into Cornell, Maryland, Army, Navy, Air Force, Missouri, etc, where they have success in college. How can they do this with the weak division, they are accused of having in high school? Answer: It doesn't matter, a State Championship in TN will not earn you a major college wrestling scholarship, unless it is at a TN State school that actually happens to know you. Outside the State, college recruiters want to know how you did at the NHSCAs, Fargo, FILA Cadet or Juniors, Beast of the East, Walsh Ironman, Toshiba Midwest Classic, and other regional/national tournaments. If you don't have a TN state championship, that's a problem...but if you have one, it is just another item on the resume and there will need to be some significant out of state successes, if you want the Big Ten, Big 12, EIWA, EWL, etc, to look at you.

 

Open it up and hopefully they will come! Its worth a try because the current system does not work...and the old one with just one state champion did not make us a major wrestling state either.

smwwrest, you make some good points (especially about the college recruiting), but the reason the d2 guys are successful in college has everything to do with them starting wrestling when they were in kids clubs and them wrestling year round. Are you suggesting that they are more highly recruited for college because they wrestle in a smaller high school division? In fact, I will go out on a limb and say if TN had just one division, more of them would've been recruited, which in turn, would've brought more recognition to the other kids they wrestled.

Edited February 22, 2011 by russianbear