AAA A/AA split is approved for 2013-2014 & DII 8 man bracket

[karelin]

This is sad news; look at the changes the state has made over the last several years-

70's-early 80s-district/region/state with only a 16 man bracket (4 places) (tourney in HS gyms)

mid-80's/early 90's-one state champion with 32 man bracket (6 places) held at UTC; IMO the best format

late 90's/to present- public/private divisions; meaning 2 state champs & 6 places for each div.

*2010-moved the state to a rodeo venue with mats literally placed on the waving contours of a dirt floor (embarrassing when compared with other state venues)

next year- 12 man small school bracket; 32 man large school bracket; 8 man D-2 bracket (still in a stable)

VERY SAD lifeline

[tullahomawrestling]

I did not see anywhere in Coach Blair's post that stated they were doing away with the Dbl Elim. format. Why would they have to drop the Dbl Elim with the new divisions?

 

Knowing people who were at the meeting, they have made the point that it is Mr Reeves intentions to do away with the Double Elimination with the starting of the A/AA.

[PUMMELKING]

Great. Now no one from Mcminn Central can wrestle. The morons in charge of that school couldn't wait to kill the sport, then they lied about reviving the program when a few folks complained. Obviously they never intended to bring back the program just a little lip service to buy time while waiting for the former wrestlers to graduate. TSSAA won't let the kids who want to wrestle transfer without losing eligibility now they can't even go to an in county school to be part of that sagging program. Exactly who's interest is being served here ?

IT all starts with the Admin at McMinn Central and McMinn County Super. They chose to do away with the program a couple of years back that was growing in numbers and had all new equipment-mats and uniforms/warmups/headgear, etc.

The issue was that that Central was treated like a step child when compaired to the County and had no place to put the mats to practice. Even had to go off campus to a Condemed Old Building to have practice. Centrals wrestlers were young, but improving and working hard then eventually SMACKED in the FACE by the Admin by not having a team--Just Dropping the Sport...Makes things much easier for Basketball and Baseball without Wrestling there.

Basketball can have full access of the gym all the time and Baseball gets the field house(which was built with wrestling supposed to utilize it, but again Admin sees to it that Baseball gets their way.

It is all on the leadership at Central.....Thanks for doing the unjustice to the kids and not allowing them the opportunity to even compete during their HS years. Imagine it would be Basketball or Baseball that was done away with, HA HA you would have every parent demanding on it be reinstated and those parents would be heard. Not the parents of the wrestlers who tend to be not as well to do in the community or actually not much interest expressed about athletics and their children. Which wrestling gave those few who had nothing---sumthing to believe in or be part of. It was not so much about a TEAM but they themself had an opportunity to repesent themselves and the school and be as good as they strived and worked to be.

But now at least for two more years no Wrestling---Thanks Admin Great Work--No Child Left Behind---But not true that is if you want to wrestle at McMinn Central--you are just left out!!

Edited November 16, 2012 by PUMMELKING

[ghouse]

No shock that most of the conversation thus far has surrounded the AAA and AA/A split. It affects a much larger subset of people.

 

However, I do find the DII change interesting. For those who prefer having meaning behind being a sate qualifier and having to earn it, this is a very positive change.

 

I would assume that DII will likely reduce the number of placers to 4 from the current 6 as is more customary in an 8-man bracket.

 

The interesting thing here is how the qualification process will be handled. Will the TSSAA opt for the split currently used for the DII Wrestling Duals and many of the other sports or will they go for a split that attempts to spread the talent a little more evenly?

 

Using the current model would mean a East / Middle division that qualifies top 5 and a West division that qualifies top 3.

 

They could also go to a system that splits the Middle teams between sub-states (regions, etc.) with East and West.

 

Should be interesting to hear the details.

[humorwrestling]

Taketop,

 

Perception is different than reality: great wrestlers aren’t created simply by numbers, they come from schools where excellent coaches are in place, very good feeder programs and great community support exist, and a WORK ethic is paramount and accepting less than #1 is unacceptable in their minds from a young age.

 

Consider these facts:

Last years top 5 with enrollment

Soddy - 1341

Cleveland- 1357

Bradley- 1664

Pigeon Forge- 726

Clarksville-1343

 

Average size of the top 5 – 1286

 

The largest school in the state is almost 2400 students—

Largest 5 with state place

Blackman – 9th

Arlington – 69th

White Station – 98^th (can’t find any results, I’ll give them tied for last)

Science Hill – 3rd

Cookeville – 26th

 

Average enrollment—2265 Average place 41^st

 

Baylor has 729 CB has 823 Father Ryan 948. All these schools could compete with DI top 5 with average enrollment of 833.

 

While I’m unsure about the White Station results, still numbers don’t lie. There might me a slight correlation to size and results on the wrestling mat when you are talking very small schools with 500 or less enrollment, but I would have to disagree that the split provides any advantage.

 

In my opinion, the goal of high school wrestling is to teach our young men and women how to persevere and overcome obstacles, rather than changing the rules to help those “less fortunate,†we should be teaching our wrestlers to work harder. Regardless of their school size, if they have the desire to be a champion, it is achievable. Wrestling teaches many life lessons—one shouldn’t be, “I can’t so can you please change the rules so that I will be able to?â€

 

Seems a little like what our president believes, take from those that have and give to those that are too lazy to get up and get it for themselves...but hey just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Edited November 16, 2012 by humorwrestling

[conspirator]

Excellent post Humour wrestling!!

This is a sad day for Tennessee wrestling. Wrestling as we know it has just ended starting next year. Will this pay off in the long run? Maybe in 20 years it might be a little better but I dont forsee much change in the immediate future. Tennessee wrestling isnt strong enough to have split divisions. Now what will happen is that small schools that have sucess will stop wrestling schools from the larger classification altogether to preserve their new found success. A few years back a friend of mines son wrestled for a georgia state championship team from one of the lower divisions and I heard about was how good they were. Well, my oldest sons team wrestled them and we beat them by 40+ points and we werent even in the top 4 in Tn that year. Being a state champion or state championship team meant something in Tn, now not it wont quite so much. Ive seen many people make the suggestion of just having the tournament all together and keep seperate team points for large and small and award team championships to both large and small but have all the kids wrestle together. Was this ever even brought up as an alternative? Seems this would have been fair to everyone.

[galloppingghost77]

First of all I agree with the comment that there are a number of factors they play a part in the success or failure of any athletic program; Coach, athletes, knowledge, supports, etc. However, the larger the pool of athletes you can draw from the more likely your team numbers will be up and the number of more/better athletic people will have.

 

Now the greater the pool or the more select a pool also plays a part in the success of a program. Schools like Baylor and McCallie have built tremendous programs that attract athletes to their program. This has not been a easy or short term process, this has been created over many years and goes back to the start of these programs and the high quality of people who laid they foundation of their success.

 

With that said, this discussion will never end with 100% of the people for or against the split. he same to be said with the split from private and public.

 

If an Athlete wins the A/AA individual State title they are a state champion and for ANYONE who speaks out against that young persons accomplishment should be ashamed. No way this division should be compared to any political statutes that establish free things for a certain portion of the population.

[humorwrestling]

Team numbers in wrestling are good up to a certain point. If a school has tons of coaches, great, but there comes a point where the law of diminishing returns kicks in on most teams because individual time between coach and wrestler is greatly reduced. Having a ton of kids in the room doesn't necessarily create a better program. Having higer quality kids in the room creates a better program. Quality doesn't come just because a school is larger. There may be a greater probability that out of 50 wrestlers 1 may put in all the extra effort to become a state champion wrestler, but these types of guys will step up no matter how many are in the program.

 

I've gotten a little off topic, but the point I'm making is this: there are too many people, not just in TN, a similar situation has recently happened in VA and other states, who always believe the deck is unfairly stacked against them. They elect not to take the Cleveland, Soddy, Pigeon Forge, Bradley, or Clarksville approch to step up with effort and dedication to overcome--they choose instead to lobby for changes that will make it easier for their school to be labeled a winner. I would never take any championship away from a wrestler, no matter how trivial, but watering down the state to "level" the playing field only works against all the traditions and ideals our sport is built upon.

 

Look at Grundy, VA as a great example--one of the smaller schools in the state, for years they could have competed as a single A school. They petitioned to stay AA so they could face tougher competition. The result, something like 9 straight state championships. They didn't lobby for an easier route, they bulldozed their way through and created champions. You say there is nothing for wrestlers to be working toward and this hard work doesn't matter. Ask these kids from Grundy who were offered the opportunity to go to college because they competed at such a high level. If they didn't get out of Grundy through wrestling, chances are they were stuck in a coal mine all their lives. Maybe there is no pro wrestling and we're not training for the olympics, but the competition level DOES matter. It matters to college coaches. If not, then why aren't DI schools beating on the doors of our TN wrestlers like they are in OH, PA, & NY?

[taketop]

Grundy VA was funded by a wealthy local man. Once his funding left, the program suffered. If comparing one small school that WAS funded by one benefactor does not quantify small schools all over the country. Funny how things change. Ask Fiser. Grundy moved to A from AA last year and won the tournament. Do you think they would rather have not won in order to say they got beat by Christiansburg (who they finished 2nd behind 6 times since 01)?

 

As far as college coaches and PA, OH, and NY.....You ever considered we are behind the curve because wrestling in considerably younger in the South? We've only been at it since the 60's. Are you suggesting that if TN had one division that we would compete with those states? REALLY? If it were only that simple. By-the-way PA and OH have divisions.

 

I am also curious as to which team you are talking about that had too many kids and coaches to be successful?

[taketop]

Taketop,

 

Perception is different than reality: great wrestlers aren’t created simply by numbers, they come from schools where excellent coaches are in place, very good feeder programs and great community support exist, and a WORK ethic is paramount and accepting less than #1 is unacceptable in their minds from a young age.

 

Consider these facts:

Last years top 5 with enrollment

Soddy - 1341

Cleveland- 1357

Bradley- 1664

Pigeon Forge- 726

Clarksville-1343

 

Average size of the top 5 – 1286

 

The largest school in the state is almost 2400 students—

Largest 5 with state place

Blackman – 9th

Arlington – 69th

White Station – 98^th (can’t find any results, I’ll give them tied for last)

Science Hill – 3rd

Cookeville – 26th

 

Average enrollment—2265 Average place 41^st

 

Baylor has 729 CB has 823 Father Ryan 948. All these schools could compete with DI top 5 with average enrollment of 833.

 

While I’m unsure about the White Station results, still numbers don’t lie. There might me a slight correlation to size and results on the wrestling mat when you are talking very small schools with 500 or less enrollment, but I would have to disagree that the split provides any advantage.

 

In my opinion, the goal of high school wrestling is to teach our young men and women how to persevere and overcome obstacles, rather than changing the rules to help those “less fortunate,†we should be teaching our wrestlers to work harder. Regardless of their school size, if they have the desire to be a champion, it is achievable. Wrestling teaches many life lessons—one shouldn’t be, “I can’t so can you please change the rules so that I will be able to?â€

 

Seems a little like what our president believes, take from those that have and give to those that are too lazy to get up and get it for themselves...but hey just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Check the average enrollment for the top 5 for the last ten years. Comparing private schools like ryan and baylor to a small public school is silly. I'm not sure how you read the numbers you posted but it seems that if you have less than 1000 kids your chances are pretty slim.

 

How do different divisions reduce the obstacles to overcome of the lessons to be learned?

 

I guess you'd tell me poverty is the fault of the poor? I mean if we could get rid of all the poor people then we wouldn't have any poverty.

 

Perception is reality

2011-12

1 223.00 Soddy Daisy 2 180.00 Cleveland 3 115.00 Bradley Central 4 107.00 Pigeon Forge 5 101.00 Clarksville

 

2010-11

1 203.00 Cleveland

2 200.50 Bradley Central

3 197.00 Soddy Daisy

4 89.50 Pigeon Forge

5 87.00 Mt. Juliet

2009-10

1 214.00 Bradley Central

2 131.50 Cleveland

3 113.00 Science Hill

4 89.00 Soddy Daisy

5 84.00 Franklin

2008-09

 

1 191.00 Bradley Central

2 143.00 Soddy Daisy

3 128.50 Cleveland

4 104.00 Cookeville

5 87.50 Independence

2007-8

1 218.00 Bradley Central

2 106.50 Cleveland

3 95.50 Brentwood

4 94.50 Franklin

5 94.00 Greenback

2006-7

1 239.00 Soddy Daisy

2 221.00 Bradley Central

3 126.00 Franklin

4 94.50 Ooltewah

5 80.00 Clarksville

2005-061. Soddy-Daisy (SD) 187.5; 2. Bradley Central (Brad) 170; 3. Notre Dame (ND) 113; 4. Franklin (Frk) 92; 5. Science Hill (SH) 89;

 

2004-051. Bradley Central (Brad) 207; 2. Franklin (Frk) 194.5; 3. Soddy-Daisy (SD) 111; 4. Clarksville (Clk) 98.5; 5. Cleveland (Cleve) 94;

 

2003-041. Bradley Central (Brad) 239.5; 2. Soddy-Daisy (SD) 172.5; 3. Franklin (Frk) 124; 4. Farragut (Farr) 80; 5. Clarksville (Clk) 77.5;

 

2002-03. Bradley Central 223.5; 2. Soddy-Daisy 134; 3. Cleveland 132.5; 4. Franklin 113.5; 5. Clarksville 112

 

2001-021. Bradley Central (Brad) 239.5; 2. Soddy-Daisy (SD) 182.5; 3. Cleveland (Cleve) 108.5; 4. Science Hill (SH) 87; 5. East Ridge (ER) 86;

 

So if numbers don't lie then in 10 years "small" schools have cracked the top 5 5 times with about 100 points separing them from 1st. So either the small schools are as you put it are too lazy to get up and get it for themselves, or the size of the school does make a difference.

Edited November 19, 2012 by taketop

[humorwrestling]

Grundy VA was funded by a wealthy local man. Once his funding left, the program suffered. If comparing one small school that WAS funded by one benefactor does not quantify small schools all over the country. Funny how things change. Ask Fiser. Grundy moved to A from AA last year and won the tournament. Do you think they would rather have not won in order to say they got beat by Christiansburg (who they finished 2nd behind 6 times since 01)?

 

As far as college coaches and PA, OH, and NY.....You ever considered we are behind the curve because wrestling in considerably younger in the South? We've only been at it since the 60's. Are you suggesting that if TN had one division that we would compete with those states? REALLY? If it were only that simple. By-the-way PA and OH have divisions.

 

I am also curious as to which team you are talking about that had too many kids and coaches to be successful?

 

This post shows how truly ignorant you are about wrestling. First of all, Grundy's star wrestlers were not created by money. They were created with hard work and a lot of time and effort. True, there was a lot of money spent on their program but EVERYONE of the kids in the program were from Grundy, VA. They didn't use the money to bring in outside talent. What they did bring in was Kevin Dresser. Dresser was the driving force behind the success of the program and he had a VERY small talent pool to draw from, there were far fewer than 1000 kids in Grundy High School. And the money is still there, Mr. Robertson and his family still supports the program. Coach Fiser would be a great coach at most any school in the nation, but following Kevin Dresser is almost impossible. They still create great wrestlers and DI talent, but not at the same level as when Dresser was around.

 

Christiansburg was a lowly AA program when Dresser arrived there, he created the same as he did at Grundy and many DI level wrestlers. Coach Weber is also a great coach, but he also had to follow Dresser, they are still tops in the nation but today many of their wrestlers are no longer home grown.

 

Your statement about TN being behind all the northern states because we only started in the 60's is EXACTLY the problem I was first referring to. There are some people, and obviously you are one of them, that always have an excuse ready for why you aren't the best. So we've only had 50 years to catch up?? Wow, who could ever expect someone to improve over 50 years...(heavy sarcasm). So what is the proper time you believe will allow us to catch up? 50 more years? Or maybe we could just say everyone is a winner and avoid all the effort of practice and tournaments and no doubt hurting some feelings.

[humorwrestling]

Check the average enrollment for the top 5 for the last ten years. Comparing private schools like ryan and baylor to a small public school is silly. I'm not sure how you read the numbers you posted but it seems that if you have less than 1000 kids your chances are pretty slim.

 

How do different divisions reduce the obstacles to overcome of the lessons to be learned?

 

I guess you'd tell me poverty is the fault of the poor? I mean if we could get rid of all the poor people then we wouldn't have any poverty.

 

Perception is reality

2011-12

1 223.00 Soddy Daisy 2 180.00 Cleveland 3 115.00 Bradley Central 4 107.00 Pigeon Forge 5 101.00 Clarksville

 

2010-11

1 203.00 Cleveland

2 200.50 Bradley Central

3 197.00 Soddy Daisy

4 89.50 Pigeon Forge

5 87.00 Mt. Juliet

2009-10

1 214.00 Bradley Central

2 131.50 Cleveland

3 113.00 Science Hill

4 89.00 Soddy Daisy

5 84.00 Franklin

2008-09

 

1 191.00 Bradley Central

2 143.00 Soddy Daisy

3 128.50 Cleveland

4 104.00 Cookeville

5 87.50 Independence

2007-8

1 218.00 Bradley Central

2 106.50 Cleveland

3 95.50 Brentwood

4 94.50 Franklin

5 94.00 Greenback

2006-7

1 239.00 Soddy Daisy

2 221.00 Bradley Central

3 126.00 Franklin

4 94.50 Ooltewah

5 80.00 Clarksville

2005-061. Soddy-Daisy (SD) 187.5; 2. Bradley Central (Brad) 170; 3. Notre Dame (ND) 113; 4. Franklin (Frk) 92; 5. Science Hill (SH) 89;

 

2004-051. Bradley Central (Brad) 207; 2. Franklin (Frk) 194.5; 3. Soddy-Daisy (SD) 111; 4. Clarksville (Clk) 98.5; 5. Cleveland (Cleve) 94;

 

2003-041. Bradley Central (Brad) 239.5; 2. Soddy-Daisy (SD) 172.5; 3. Franklin (Frk) 124; 4. Farragut (Farr) 80; 5. Clarksville (Clk) 77.5;

 

2002-03. Bradley Central 223.5; 2. Soddy-Daisy 134; 3. Cleveland 132.5; 4. Franklin 113.5; 5. Clarksville 112

 

2001-021. Bradley Central (Brad) 239.5; 2. Soddy-Daisy (SD) 182.5; 3. Cleveland (Cleve) 108.5; 4. Science Hill (SH) 87; 5. East Ridge (ER) 86;

 

So if numbers don't lie then in 10 years "small" schools have cracked the top 5 5 times with about 100 points separing them from 1st. So either the small schools are as you put it are too lazy to get up and get it for themselves, or the size of the school does make a difference.

 

No, getting rid of the poor does not eliminate poverty, but making them work does. But your belief is they are dealt a bad hand in life so therefore we need to change the rules for them and not expect them to persevere or overcome obstacles? So you would say, its not fair that I have a nice car and home that I've worked my butt off for the last 25 years to obtain and they guy living under the bridge does not. Everyone should be entitled to the same nice house and car. Ignore the fact that they chose to party all night and would rather spend the day drinking a 40 instead of working. Its not fair right? Just so, kids at schools with less than 1,000 enrollment (according to you) have been dealt a bad hand and therefore we need to make accomodations for them to also be winners rather than asking them to put in the effort to make it for themselves. You sir, are the kind of people that will destroy our sport.