Strength of wrestling in TN

[Biffmar4]

So what’s the real metric we are measuring the growth and strength of the state of wrestling in TN?  Is it number of kids going D1?    Would we have more kids going to the next level if we only had one division? I’d argue we are stronger now as a state in this sport than we’ve ever been. Is the high school season competition really  watered down if we are growing and getting stronger in wrestling as a state?  Also, small school is putting more kids in D1 this year than any other division based on what I’ve seen so far, so not sure how that all fits in the picture. Could sixth place big school beat sixth place small school?  In most cases bc of athlete pool,  but are we diluting the sport by having three divisions?  I don’t think so. Also, for the best wrestlers in the state, the season has just started and there are no school divisions. Soddy and Halls dang near had their full rosters at Ironman this weekend. I’ll add this too, I see several multi sport athletes doing just fine and moving on to the next level in one sport or another (Kobe Smith, Littles, Medina, Redford and on and on). I also see several year round athletes doing the same thing and excelling on the national level. We also have clubs growing across the state like young guns and minions and we have families that have stayed in TN and are creating dynasties like the Uhorchuks, Fowlers, Chittums, and Littles. Not sure what we are really looking for in our state other than having the wrestling trajectory moving up and to the right and that’s what I’m seeing from both male and female wrestling. IMO, we are doing something right. 

[cbg]

Yes, among the top tier wrestlers, high school wrestling in Tennessee is better than ever before.  IMO, this is due to three things:  1. The population in Tennessee is now just over 7 million people and with that growth you have also had wrestling families move into the state.  2. Kids today have much better access to top quality training and coaching other than the typical high school coaches.  Before it was all about who ones high school coach was and the culture of their program.  Today kids in some geographical areas are being trained by D1 AA’s.  Yes, exceptions were around back in the day but they were not available to everyone.  3.  There are so many offseason national tournaments available to kids that were not around in past years.  It wasn’t that many years ago the only national tournaments were the Junior Nationals and the AAU Freestyle/Greco Roman Nationals.  I don’t want to hurt peoples feelings but the items listed above are what has grown wrestling in Tennessee.  All that having multiple divisions in wrestling has done is give some kids gaudy records and state medals that would not have been achieved if Tennessee had one division. Like one “old timer” told me, we now have kids placing in the state tournament that would not have qualified for the state if we only had one division.   

[TotallynotLEO]

Halls had I think 4 or 5 there.  The rest were from surrounding schools that train with the Halls club off season.  

[oceansize42]

Every sport is getting better at the top. However, it has become an arms race.  Great athletes can do more than one sport at a super high level but most cannot. The divide between the top and bottom is humungous (and for that the matter the top and the above average) and I'm not sure if that is a good thing for high school sports.  There is a part of me that thinks how things worked in prior decades was better.  Great athletes went on to college sports and honed their craft, the rest went on to the military, trades, or college.  I see quite a few young men now who aren't D1 athletes in D1 athletics due to their excellent high school training but for the most part it doesn't go well for them in terms of their college records, ability to start, etc.    Most would be better served at a lower level unless they are simply at the college for academics and wrestling is a side activity but that is hard road to travel in wrestling. 

@cbg is completely correct that if there was one division then there would only be six medalists per weight class as opposed to the eighteen per weight class we have now.  I go back in forth in my own mind about whether or not I think more medals is better or worse.  My son wouldn't have medaled in one division, no way, as the kids at his weight class or up and down one weight class were nationally significant, and that would have been fine.  In my opinion what kills participation is bad parents, bad coaches, and bad programs in that order.  Not a lack of medals. However, I do think hyper-specialization is also playing a role in hurting high school sports, particularly in individual sports like tennis, wrestling, and golf.  There are many high school tennis players who would destroy professionals from 30 years ago, absolutely destroy them.   Kids are very aware of the massive skill gap between themselves and the hyper-specialists we have today and it has become insurmountable unless you have the parents to fund/shuttle you to and from or you have a program like Cleveland and a perhaps a few others that are very supportive.   

Edited April 16, 2023 by oceansize42

[TotallynotLEO]

I don't get all the hate for the different levels. 

College has D1, D2, D3, NAIA and JC levels for individual sports. 

A kid getting AA status at an NAIA school diminishes the kids on the stand at D1... that's exactly what you are claiming. 

If it were team sports,  an apples to apples comparison is Nick Saban complaining about Carson Newman winning a title. 

I just don't see it. 

 

Ocean, you are correct about parents ruining the sports experience.  As coaches and parents we need to elevate the entire program, not just our kid(s). I've seen parents that dominate the rooms/fields, only looking for their kid to get attention and improvement.  To quote a fairly successful dude, "it's amazing what you accomplish when you don't care who gets credit". That's how parents and coaches should approach making a program better.  

 

At Blackman this weekend there was a lot of talent in the room. I was impressed by some pretty high level kids there.  

Edited April 16, 2023 by TotallynotLEO

[oceansize42]

When lessening the degree of difficulty here are my thoughts on why I don’t like it. One, there is more to learn from disappointment than there is middling success.  Two it is important to make some things so difficult to achieve that they seem almost impossible.  
 

However I completely understand the other viewpoint and acknowledge there is a possibility it is a better one.  I don’t know.  In the end I wish more parents focused on life skills, actually being good parents, and a lot less on sports.  After all, almost all walk off the mat that last time in HS never to return. 

Edited April 16, 2023 by oceansize42

[TotallynotLEO]

24 minutes ago, oceansize42 said:

When lessening the degree of difficulty here are my thoughts on why I don’t like it. One, there is more to learn from disappointment than there is middling success.  Two it is important to make some things so difficult to achieve that they seem almost impossible.  
 

However I completely understand the other viewpoint and acknowledge there is a possibility it is a better one.  I don’t know.  In the end I wish more parents focused on life skills, actually being good parents, and a lot less on sports.  After all, almost all walk off the mat that last time in HS never to return. 

Ocean, this pretty well echos my thoughts.  Solid post on your part. I can see both sides.  In the end,  I'm ok with where we're at right now though. For kids to get to the top of either division they are wrestling year round.  They've likely competed against each other off season  already. This weekend at Ironman there were a lot of champs and medalists from all over. 

 

[cbg]

2 hours ago, oceansize42 said:

When lessening the degree of difficulty here are my thoughts on why I don’t like it. One, there is more to learn from disappointment than there is middling success.  Two it is important to make some things so difficult to achieve that they seem almost impossible.  
 

However I completely understand the other viewpoint and acknowledge there is a possibility it is a better one.  I don’t know.  In the end I wish more parents focused on life skills, actually being good parents, and a lot less on sports.  After all, almost all walk off the mat that last time in HS never to return. 

I totally agree with you about many of today’s parents and the life lessons that are to be learned from high school athletics.  Another topic that most people fail to mention is the academic side of high school.  The kids that have the high gpa’s along with great ACT/SAT scores are really setting themselves up to be successful in this world economy that is ever present in our lives.  

[TNCroCU]

17 hours ago, TotallynotLEO said:

I don't get all the hate for the different levels. 

College has D1, D2, D3, NAIA and JC levels for individual sports. 

A kid getting AA status at an NAIA school diminishes the kids on the stand at D1... that's exactly what you are claiming. 

If it were team sports,  an apples to apples comparison is Nick Saban complaining about Carson Newman winning a title. 

I just don't see it. 

 

Ocean, you are correct about parents ruining the sports experience.  As coaches and parents we need to elevate the entire program, not just our kid(s). I've seen parents that dominate the rooms/fields, only looking for their kid to get attention and improvement.  To quote a fairly successful dude, "it's amazing what you accomplish when you don't care who gets credit". That's how parents and coaches should approach making a program better.  

 

At Blackman this weekend there was a lot of talent in the room. I was impressed by some pretty high level kids there.  

college an high school are 2 different beasts completely  when it comes to divisions. The divisions in college are pretty different its all work based leveling for the most part. there is D1 your talented wrestlers (state champs, or placers)  meets hard work and insane commitment level (no days off).

Then there is everyone else D2, D3, NAIA, Juco. These are for wrestlers who are talented (still state champs and state placers for the most part, and some state qualifiers for roster numbers), that work hard but have a lack in ether success nationally (high school), Grades, or commitment level ( don't won't to do no days off).   

 plus there is no watering down any college divisions they are all hard/tough just at varying levels of difficulty... any paid division D2/Juco/NAIA your wresting state placers an champs for national placement period. I don't define that as easy...       

High school divisions are based off of size and population alone.  sure one division may be tougher then another on any given year because talented kids land everywhere in a state. medals may be handed out to those who may not get them other wise, but in the big scheme of things those kids are not getting recruited over truly talented kids. College coaches have eyes to see they know what good wrestling is. They are cherry picking the talent.

 

 

[barbwire]

Wrestling at the next level regardless of the classification from NAIA up to D1 is great metric for overall strength of the sport in TN.  Scholarships full or partial are more readily available at the smaller schools, while getting a partial scholarship at the D1 level like winning the lottery, some offer housing, and others offer tuition discounts. D1 only offers 9-1/2 scholarships(which is criminal) Less than 1% of high school wrestlers are offered even a partial scholarship at the D1 level.  Greater opportunities exist at the D2, D3 and NAIA levels if a wrestler is looking to have his education paid for in exchange for his athletic abilities.

These opportunities have grown immeasurably with social media and national exposure to the recruiters that was previously not available.  Yes you still have to do well at national tournaments where college coaches are in attendance, but the advent of videos being available to coaches via flo and track among others has opened the doors to recruiting for the athlete that truly wants to wrestle at the next level.

When comparing the talent level of today's wrestlers with wrestlers of previous generations, the # of wrestlers that are great is certainly higher. But when comparing truly elite athletes, from 20, 30, or 40 years ago they would more than hold there own if wrestling today.  This comparison is skewed however in relation to the amount of opportunities today vs 20 or 30 yrs ago.

Coaches and parents today,  have infinitely more tools available to them, to assist their athletes if they desire to go to the next level. Registering for tournaments, communicating with coaches/recruiters, developing their resume' with highlight videos, you name it and it is at their fingertips.

No doubt this sport has grown tremendously in TN due to many factors mentioned by others such as higher population, better coaching, dedicated parents, and athletes willing to put in the work. 

When speaking about the # of divisions and watering down of the sport vs participation levels etc, You are all forgetting to include one very important factor.  Probably the most important factor and that is the kids. If you were to ask any wrestler, I guarantee they know where they stand in the pecking order, rankings etc.  If a wrestler is vying for a state title, they want to face the toughest opponents, the most elite kids, regardless of what classification they are in or school they attend.  State champion should carry a lot of weight, but in states like GA, with 7 classifications, it is guaranteed that the kids that win in 1A and 2A etc, want nothing more than to prove themselves against the state champs from 6A and 7A.  They don't care about classifications or school size.  They just want to wrestle.

[Biffmar4]

All great points and a few quick takes:

Sounds like most on here are in agreement that having 3 divisions doesn't hurt the top-level talent in each division.  They still compete year-round (basically) and so giving an opportunity to a small school kid to earn 6th place in that division doesn't negatively impact or diminish the top tier talent in the state's ability to go on and compete at the next level.

More divisions, also means more kids experiencing disappointment.  They may fall one short of districts or sectionals which makes them push harder in the off season or the following year.  They may fall one short at the state level from placing and that motivates them, or they may even place 5th or 6th and realize they are capable of more and that motivates them.  I would say to place at state in any division is not a participation trophy.  There is preparation, commitment, sacrifice, nerves, expectations, whether you are big, small, or private all translatable to life.    IMO, the current number of athletes that get to experience this in our state in our sport is a great number.  Not too few, not too many; roughly 252 (6 places * 3 divisions *14 weight classes) kids placing out of 2800 (200 schools * 14 weight classes) starting wrestlers or just under 1% of TN high school wrestlers place at state.  To be a state champ in any division, you are the top .013% to top .015% of your respective division or across all wrestlers in the state.  That leaves 2,548 (or double that if you count the rest of the roster) wrestlers without a participation trophy.

Parents in any sport can be bad, but I would argue wrestling less so than other sports.  If Billy beats Bobby in a wrestling match, there is much less room for subjectivity than Bobby has a better glove and Billy has a better bat, but Bobby is my son and I coach the team so Bobby is starting.  That being said, I will also say that parents appear to grow in the sport as their wrestlers do.  New parents are louder and more nervous and don't understand the rules or the commitment both kids have put in to be on the mat.  They yell and scream more.  As parents mature in the sport, they also understand that losing is not the end of the world and that if you aren't losing, you aren't competing in tough enough tournaments for your wrestler to improve.  I don't have a negative experience with a coach or a club as my son came up.  I remember my anxiety and anger when he didn't give his best effort, when he quit on himself or his team and how that manifested in our conversations.  As he matured, so did I.  I learned to give him space, to talk with me if and when he was ready.  Once the effort was there, there was nothing left for me to be angry about, but that took time for both of us to understand.  These days, even at state when he was considered the favorite to repeat as state champion and he lost in the semis, as he came off the mat, it was a hug and an "I love you and you'll always be enough in my eyes" and away he went to beat himself up and start to reconcile the loss and start to move forward again.

All this to say, it certainly feels like the sport is growing tremendously in our state.  It is becoming more mature.  We will begin to compete better at the national level across all collegiate divisions, and I think you will see TN wrestlers AA at NCAAs, if not win D1 National Championships in the next few years.

I'm beyond thankful what this sport has provided for my son and myself and I just don't see how 3 divisions or 1 division would have changed that one way or another.

Last thing, unless your wrestler is a nationally ranked blue chipper, don't expect a lot, if any D1 money.  There are 35 roster spots on a D1 squad and most schools have between 6 and 9.9 1-year scholarships to go around for the whole team.  I think overall, D1 coaches look at the upside of TN wrestlers.  Are they passionate about wrestling, have they traveled the country to get their butt whooped and still kept swinging or even experiencing success at the national level, are they constantly working on their physique and craft?  I think D1 coaches see potential and room for improvement when TN wrestlers get in the room.  That being said, if you have a young wrestler that wants to compete in college at any level, have them focus on their grades from day one.  There is a lot of academic money available for kids with good grades and good test scores that can help get them an opportunity to get in the room to learn and grow more, level up, earn a starting spot, and compete for their goals.

 

[TNCroCU]

scholarship break down by division if anyone is interested in knowing. 

Juco- can offer up to 16 full rides depending on institution per team  

D1- max 9.5 for 25-35 man team

NAIA-  10 for 35-40 man roster

D2- 9 for 35-40 man roster 

D3- does not do athletic scholarships but does give out academic grants for "academic purposes if you qualify"