swamp Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Having Scottie at his side and Phil as his coach probably helped. And I think that's a rather weak justification of selective enforcement of the rules. If there were no Magic, Bird owns 8 rings; likewise, if there were no Bird, Magic owns 8. Where was Jordan's competition? And who decided he would shoulder the image of the league? The league itself. Posted by TankTalk:When I was younger I was an Anit-Jordanitte. I thought he was all flash...and just able to jump high. I was heavy into Bird and Magic and still feel they made their team better. However, winning owns all. Michael is a winner...always will be a winner and because of that, he is the greatest to ever lace them up. I do feel, however, he didn't have any peers to really challenge him. Magic, Bird, Kareem, The Doctor, Isiah, Nique, Young Jordan, Young Patrick...and a couple others made that mid to late 80s simply amazing. But bottom line, Jordan was the best. I do feel the officials realized he was the man and he was given the call most of the time...but heck, when one man was shouldering the image of the league, it's easy to see how that pressure would make the officials do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankTalk Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Scotty was overrated, just look at what kind of average player he turned into when he was without Michael. Phil can coach....good players, but come on. If you sit there and expect me to say that Phil is the reason for the success of the Bulls or the Lakers...I would laugh at you. I feel MANY coaches could have been handed both of those teams and had similar success. And I agree 100 percent about the Bird and Magic thing...those two offset each other's championships and I already conceded I felt they were better for their team...but as far as an individual...NOBODY could take a team on their shoulders and take the scoring burden late to win a game like Michael. And this comes from a Bird-loving monster...and a guy who is old-school and feels a jumper is every bit as exciting as a dunk. Posted by swamp:Having Scottie at his side and Phil as his coach probably helped. And I think that's a rather weak justification of selective enforcement of the rules. If there were no Magic, Bird owns 8 rings; likewise, if there were no Bird, Magic owns 8. Where was Jordan's competition? And who decided he would shoulder the image of the league? The league itself. Posted by TankTalk:When I was younger I was an Anit-Jordanitte. I thought he was all flash...and just able to jump high. I was heavy into Bird and Magic and still feel they made their team better. However, winning owns all. Michael is a winner...always will be a winner and because of that, he is the greatest to ever lace them up. I do feel, however, he didn't have any peers to really challenge him. Magic, Bird, Kareem, The Doctor, Isiah, Nique, Young Jordan, Young Patrick...and a couple others made that mid to late 80s simply amazing. But bottom line, Jordan was the best. I do feel the officials realized he was the man and he was given the call most of the time...but heck, when one man was shouldering the image of the league, it's easy to see how that pressure would make the officials do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigred11 Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 i am not a huge jordan fan, but he is the most prominent basketball player in recent history. he is not the best of all time, but definitely top 5. only because there is no way to tell the best player ever, unless the go 1 on 1. he has had one of the most illustrious careers ever and the game is much better off because of him. there will not be another player like him for a while. swamp is right. being on the bulls during their reignmade helped him become what he is today, but he would have done it on his own; it just would have taken more time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankTalk Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 And yes, that was a pretty weak excuse as to the enforcement of the rules. However, the NBA is a business and I am sure their fantasitcally geekish executives realized then that Michael was the NBA. The seats he personally filled were a big reason the league survived the thin mid 90s and while it's not right, it's how things go. Michael did in fact get special treatment. But if you or I were in the same situation as the NBA and their leadership...we probably would have done the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamp Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Exactly how many championships has MJ won without Jackson & Pippen, before or after, though? MJ may be the reason the league was where it was in the 90's, but sacrificing the sport to promote him has the league where it is today - in the Tank (no pun intended.) As a businessman, I don't know what I would have done. Was the NBA that absent of talent in the 90's? Posted by TankTalk:And yes, that was a pretty weak excuse as to the enforcement of the rules. However, the NBA is a business and I am sure their fantasitcally geekish executives realized then that Michael was the NBA. The seats he personally filled were a big reason the league survived the thin mid 90s and while it's not right, it's how things go. Michael did in fact get special treatment. But if you or I were in the same situation as the NBA and their leadership...we probably would have done the same thing. [Edited by swamp on 2-10-03 2:59P] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankTalk Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Wow...so you are saying Michael is the reason the NBA is in the tank? I do agree with you on many things you post...but to say the BEST sports marketing device ever is the reason the league is in the tank, simply astounds me. What has this league and many professional leagues in the tank is the fact that free agency and the lack of loyalty has diminished the American fan's desire to love their team anymore. Heck, you have to look each and every year to see who is on your team, always seeing a changing roster...and that is at the root of what's wrong. It's what is wrong with many aspects of life...greed my friend. When athletes stop caring about themselves...and start caring about the ones paying off their vacation homes and alimony payments...fans, then professional sports will start turing around. But to blame Michael...that's hilarious Swampster. I think his work ethic and demeanor on and off the court has been a sterling example for young athletes to look at. Sorry if he hasn't been involved in any scandals...and he doesn't say "I am not a role model" but give the man SOME credit. He has always been fairly good at being a role-model and carrying the torch for the game. Posted by swamp:Exactly how many championships has MJ won without Jackson & Pippen, before or after, though? MJ may be the reason the league was where it was in the 90's, but sacrificing the sport to promote him has the league where it is today - in the Tank (no pun intended.) As a businessman, I don't know what I would have done. Was the NBA that absent of talent in the 90's? Posted by TankTalk:And yes, that was a pretty weak excuse as to the enforcement of the rules. However, the NBA is a business and I am sure their fantasitcally geekish executives realized then that Michael was the NBA. The seats he personally filled were a big reason the league survived the thin mid 90s and while it's not right, it's how things go. Michael did in fact get special treatment. But if you or I were in the same situation as the NBA and their leadership...we probably would have done the same thing. [Edited by swamp on 2-10-03 2:59P] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankTalk Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 And to answer your questions about Michael and his championships without Scottie or Phil. I have a feeling the man would have a ring or three without them. But we will never know and hypothetical arguments get us nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudenoway Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 All the fun in an all-star game can be taken out if certain things are forced. EX. The east's goal was to make MJ the MVP of the all-star game, it's good to see that it didn't happen that way!!!(a lot of well deserving players unhappily got extremely little playing time because of this forcing to try to make MJ the hero and MVP of the night. Also.....MJ hit that one fadeaway from the corner that could've ended the game.....wow i guess he had to hit it sooner or later just like anyone else. It takes all the excitement out of the game when things are forced like this. Those of you who don't agree need to open your eyes!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankTalk Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 I agree that scripted fun is no fun at all. I just think Isiah and others were paying respect to Michael and while it would have been nice if the baseline J would have been the game winner (At least the sportswriters would have loved that) I was glad to see Kevin win the MVP, he deserved it. Now I really feel sorry for the players who were whining about playing time as they head to cash their $10,000 All-Star check for playing 10 minutes. I must disagree with your one comment about opening our eyes. You should be glad people don't all share the same opinion and can openly disagree with each other on a message board. Wouldn't things be very boring if we all agreed? Posted by dudenoway:All the fun in an all-star game can be taken out if certain things are forced. EX. The east's goal was to make MJ the MVP of the all-star game, it's good to see that it didn't happen that way!!!(a lot of well deserving players unhappily got extremely little playing time because of this forcing to try to make MJ the hero and MVP of the night. Also.....MJ hit that one fadeaway from the corner that could've ended the game.....wow i guess he had to hit it sooner or later just like anyone else. It takes all the excitement out of the game when things are forced like this. Those of you who don't agree need to open your eyes!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelma Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 O.K. Tank, I do agree on that one. It's good that we can all joyously agree to disagree!!?? Thelma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelma Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 Now MHS, let's not get to calling names here. Looks like you might have a couple of vulnerable spots yourself!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimatefan Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 those guys who whined about 10 minutes or less of playin time obviously could careless about the $10,000 all star check! everyone now-a-days talks about how players don't care about the game and just want the money but this obviously shows that playin in the all star game was way more important to them! i think they had a very good right to be upset about their playing time! they wanna play with the rest of the great players in the league because they were voted to be there just like the rest of the guys! i think it was a shame to have them sit there the whole game and not be able to showcase their talents with the rest of the guys! also i think anyone that tries to take accomplishments from MJ is not very basketball intelligent. how can someone who never probably even played in college, much less the NBA, talk bad about the greatest player in the history of the NBA? don't hate the player, hate the game!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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