Scrimmages illegal before August 5

[Guest region4fan]

I thought hat coaches were required to go to rules meetings every yr before the season starts?? It seems like if there were questions about what constitutes a scrimmage, practice, etc....it should be clarified then by asking!

[mhabballfan]

Referees are just like coaches. they only deal with their specific rules and operate out of various ref. associations.  They probably had no idea but the coaches and AD's are legally bound to read and know ALL the rules, and ignorance of specific rules is no defense.

 

I believe you are correct on the officials excuse. Referees follow the NFHS rulebook, not the TSSAA charter. This is a reason why officials cannot forfeit varsity games because a player played in more than six quarters in one day.

 

[TSSAA Bylaws Article II Section 9 ~ The membership of a B team shall be composed of all varsity substitutes and any other players that are certified to TSSAA. ........A player shall not participate in more than six quarters of play in one day during regular-season contest. A player who enters a game for any length of time during a quarter shall be charged with a quarter's participation.]

 

That is an example of why officials have no jurisdiction in TSSAA rules. This is why the officials did not say anything.

 

Another thing is, I am almost positive, that schools can hire anyone (certified official or not), referee any non-varsity or freshman event. (B game, JV game, scrimmage)

[Chomp]

I contacted the TSSAA office and asked about the rule. It was confirmed by phone that THURSDAY was the first legal day to practice and the officials in this case got it wrong! Who knows what will happen in this case but coaches should keep up with the rules and do their best to follow them! I know these men and they are good people so I don't know where the mix up came from. This is NOT a new rule, in fact, we have had this rule for over three years but this year the wording was changed.

 

 

 

I'm glad the TSSAA "confirmed" the first legal day to scrimmage was August 5th- now if only they can learn to write an intelligible rule. By the way, if the wording in a rule changes, it's a new rule.

The interpretation of this one by the TSSAA is really strict and not defensible. No where in the rule does it require three days of practice "in full pads" prior to a practice with another team or a scrimmage. It simply requires three days of practice from the beginning practice date. Most teams accomplished that the week of August 26 in shorts and helmets. As long as the practices were authorized to begin during the week of August 26 (and as I understand it they are authorized if outside of the summer dead period) then they should be suffcient for the purpose of this part of the rule and for acclimatizing players.

The rule does specify in a subsequent paragraph that the first week in pads is to be the week of August 1st. But it doesn't follow that this is the first point from which practices for purposes of scrimmages are to be counted. If it was meant to be that week, the TSSAA could have easily written "until both schools have practiced a minimum of three days in full pads from the beginning practice date in each sport."

The rule is not clear or "black and white" as some have said and as far as I'm concerned no school which had three practices either in pads or shorts prior to a scrimmage should be condidered in "violation." Unfortunately, it's not my opinion that counts, but rather the TSSAA's. Their heart's in the right place, but their head is somewhere else.

[Sequatchie]

Nice post Chomp! thumb

 

Now what about Spring Scrimmages?

[msgov]

chomp,

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but as soon as school ends officially for any given school year, can't any and all teams practice with helmets and shorts (no other protective padding)? I believe the rule states Aug. !st in the first official day of practice in pads - the TSSAA has no say when you start in shorts, they don't tell you when you can start "practice" EXCEPT WHEN YOU START IN PADS.

 

I think the rule is clear cut!!!

[Chomp]

chomp,

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but as soon as school ends officially for any given school year, can't any and all teams practice with helmets and shorts (no other protective padding)?  I believe the rule states Aug. !st in the first official day of practice in pads - the TSSAA has no say when you start in shorts, they don't tell you when you can start "practice" EXCEPT WHEN YOU START IN PADS.

 

I think the rule is clear cut!!!

   

825299175[/snapback]

 

 

Your understanding is the same as mine on that point. The schools can practice after school officially ends in helmets and shorts any time except during a two week dead period. I don't know how all schools handle their summer workouts but at Dobbyns-Bennett, except for the two week dead period, up until August 26th the expectation was that the players would show up for workouts - but it wasn't mandatory. August 26 marked the beginning of mandatory workouts, in helmet and shorts for the first week, but the "beginning practice date" in football nonetheless. To equate the "beginning practice date" with the first date for full pads simply isn't justified by the rules and like I mentioned before if that's what TSSAA intended, they could have easily written that into the rule.

The rule is anything but clear cut and unless schools were having mixed practices or scrimmages prior to three workouts into their start of two a days, I don't think they should be considered in violation. Just my opinion - but I think that interpretation is protective of our young athletes and in keeping with the spirit of the rule.

Query: If you use the TSSAA's same strict interpretation of the rule with respect to the TSSAA calendar for the "first contest" will any week 0 game be legal?

[ama3802]

just a few things to think on and hopefully understand; first i agree with Indian; logic, and that is a scary word to use when talking about TSSAA, says that scrimmaging against other teams is a lot safer than practicing by yourself; obiviously you cannot scrimmage everyday, but kids are at a lot less risk when they go against other teams; fewer kids are involved in practice and coaches and trainers can keep a better eye on the kids; this just makes sense;

 

my next point is about the TSSAA; first, who sanctions them; is their a governing body that watches over them; i mean even the CIA and FBI have to answer to someone; so who does the TSSAA answer, from where i sit noone; i mean they receive state benefits, but are not under the control of the state, hmmmm that seems fishy; second, if there are rules to follow, and a rule book in place, then what are the penalties; i mean if the rules are laid out and are black and white, then should there not be penlties laid out in black and white as well; ohhh, but then this would not let TSSAA make up the penlties as the go; they just take each case one at a time and then depending on who the guilty party is, then they go behind closed doors and making their ruling; so they can decided what the penalty is as each individual case comes up; in other words tennessee high school sports are at the WHIM of TSSAA; wow that is fair

 

also they have you state your case in front of them, but then have you leave the room and decide you fate; i thought the accused were allowed to face their accusers, but oh wait this is TSSAA (or a dictatorhsip)

 

and where is all this money going that TSSAA collects from insurance, 50% of football playoff gates (before expeneses are taken out), and whatever they take from other sports playoff gates

 

just some food for thought

[msgov]

chomp,

You keep referring to Aug. 26th as the starting date of practice, don't worry I know you meant to write July 26th (don't call me a picky old hag). Now here is my statement, I would bet my last batch of hominy grits that there are schools here in our great state, that don't start practice until the first allowable day of padded practice.

Now here is something else to ponder - school year ends on May 27, 2005. The coaches practice the kids 2-3-4 days a week until the end of July, with the exception of the dead period, should they be allowed to scrimmage on August 1st?

Now the TSSAA does not govern any summer activities in football EXCEPT during the dead period. Granted you can read any rule and ask 10 people to interrupt it and you would probably get 10 different answers.

The rule says you can't have a scrimmage until you have been in pads for THREE DAYS (not three practices).

I just wonder how many schools have not had the fortitude and honesty to self-report themselves.

Last statement - I read a thread on the prospects on Knox Central this year and there was a post that said, they had a good week of work against Bearden down at Tennessee Tech, BUT they didn't look good in yesterday's scrimmage because they got back from camp on Thursday evening and had a lot of nagging injuries, bumps and bruises.

If my bifocals are not in need of replacement, that would leed me to believe Central and Bearden, GOT IT ON before Thursday.

Hugs and kisses to Graham Clark - he is just so adorable when he wears his Barney hat!!!

[Chomp]

chomp,

You keep referring to Aug. 26th as the starting date of practice, don't worry I know you meant to write July 26th (don't call me a picky old hag).  Now here is my statement, I would bet my last batch of hominy grits that there are schools here in our great state, that don't start practice until the first allowable day of padded practice.

Now here is something else to ponder - school year ends on May 27, 2005.  The coaches practice the kids 2-3-4 days a week until the end of July, with the exception of the dead period, should they be allowed to scrimmage on August 1st?

Now the TSSAA does not govern any summer activities in football EXCEPT during the dead period.  Granted you can read any rule and ask 10 people to interrupt it and you would probably get 10 different answers.

The rule says you can't have a scrimmage until you have been in pads for THREE DAYS (not three practices).

I just wonder how many schools have not had the fortitude and honesty to self-report themselves.

Last statement - I read a thread on the prospects on Knox Central this year and there was a post that said, they had a good week of work against Bearden down at Tennessee Tech, BUT they didn't look good in yesterday's scrimmage because they got back from camp on Thursday evening and had a lot of nagging injuries, bumps and bruises.

If my bifocals are not in need of replacement, that would leed me to believe Central and Bearden, GOT IT ON before Thursday.

Hugs and kisses to Graham Clark - he is just so adorable when he wears his Barney hat!!!

   

825299371[/snapback]

 

No wonder my summer is flying by - I'm a month ahead. You're right msgov, I meant July 26...

To continue beating a dead horse, the rule states (and I quote):

 

Pre-season scrimmages: A school team cannot practice with or scrimmage another school team until both schools have practiced a minimum of three days from the beginning practice date in each sport.

 

Interestingly, that rule applies to ALL sports and not just football, so it can't mean on its face that you have to be in pads. Different schools may choose a different beginning date for their sport. Some chose July 26 (I think I got it right this time) because classes start as early as August 9th. After three days of practice they should be able to scrimmage another school as long as they are in compliance with the provision that says no pads until after August 1. Some schools may have classes starting later and consequently their beginning practice is August 2, coincidentally coinciding with the first day they are allowed to be in pads. After three days of practice (whether such practices were in pads or not) they would be legal to scrimmage or practice with another team. I personnally think that's a better interpretation than we're hearing from the TSSAA and it's protective of the kids - but I'd be the last one to declare that it's clear!

[GWAVE1]

just a few things to think on and hopefully understand; first i agree with Indian; logic, and that is a scary word to use when talking about TSSAA, says that scrimmaging against other teams is a lot safer than practicing by yourself; obiviously you cannot scrimmage everyday, but kids are at a lot less risk when they go against other teams; fewer kids are involved in practice and coaches and trainers can keep a better eye on the kids; this just makes sense;

 

my next point is about the TSSAA; first, who sanctions them; is their a governing body that watches over them; i mean even the CIA and FBI have to answer to someone; so who does the TSSAA answer, from where i sit noone; i mean they receive state benefits, but are not under the control of the state, hmmmm that seems fishy; second, if there are rules to follow, and a rule book in place, then what are the penalties; i mean if the rules are laid out and are black and white, then should there not be penlties laid out in black and white as well; ohhh, but then this would not let TSSAA make up the penlties as the go; they just take each case one at a time and then depending on who the guilty party is, then they go behind closed doors and making their ruling; so they can decided what the penalty is as each individual case comes up; in other words tennessee high school sports are at the WHIM of TSSAA; wow that is fair

 

also they have you state your case in front of them, but then have you leave the room and decide you fate; i thought the accused were allowed to face their accusers, but oh wait this is TSSAA (or a dictatorhsip)

 

and where is all this money going that TSSAA collects from insurance, 50% of football playoff gates (before expeneses are taken out), and whatever they take from other sports playoff gates

 

just some food for thought

825299339[/snapback]

Brother you are all over it!! Everything you said is fact.

 

Let me help you here with your point. Ronnie Carter makes the executive decisions reguarding infractions. He also deals out the punishment. The law you speak of reguarding behind closed doors is called the Sunshine Laws of the State of Tenneessee. What they did to Gallatin was illegal thus the lawsuit. Finally the TSSAA is a rouge agency. Yes agency. Ruled as an arm of the government by the courts. Yet they answer to noone. Not even the President has that kind of power. Think about it!

[msgov]

chomp,

I see what you are saying, BUT the TSSAA states they must have three days of practice before they can scrimmage, right? They also say the first legal day to practice in pads is August 1st. This means this is their first official day of practice!

Therefore, this year the first LEGAL day of competition against another school whether it be 1 on 1, 3 on 3 or full team scrimmage was AUGUST 5TH!!!!

[recruitguru]

While everyone is knocking TSSAA, you should know they fall under the National Federation of High School Association and its rules, their rules govern all high school sports, and TSSAA is under their guidelines.

 

NFHS playing rules, available in 16 sports for boys and girls, govern virtually all high school competition in the United States.

 

The rules-writing program, which stresses "grass-roots" input, was initiated in order for high school coaches, athletic administrators and interscholastic officials to have direct influence in developing rules.

 

NFHS rules are specifically written for the high school level of participation and are intended to promote and preserve the sound traditions of the sports and the safety of participants.

 

 

http://www.nfhs.org/scriptcontent/Index.cfm