State Duals Attendance

[cbg]

I don't accept your hypothesis TSSAA is losing money on the duals tournament and that reducing the # of teams results in a 50% savings. Even if you are correct, so what ? How about doing what is beneficial to the kids and the sport for a change ? TSSAA rakes in big money for very little effort on football games, the orginization as a whole seems very profitable so it shouldn't be a big deal IF they had to subsidize one tournament occasionaly. The answer is to GROW wrestling and that means provide more not fewer opportunities for wrestlers and wrestling teams to compete in state wide competitions. The small schools division should be expanded to at least 8 teams ands the AAA+ division should be looked at for expansion as well. The third best team in some regions would likely place higher than region champs in others. Add a couple of pig tail brakets and let some of these teams try and wrestle their way into the tournament.

 

Look at what the shrink until you are profitable ( and title 9 ) mentality has done to college wrestling. Fewer programs, fewer weight classes, tournament berths slanted so only the current eltite programs have realistic shots of qualifiying etc.

I for one would like to see Tennessee do everything they can to EXPAND wrestling. It might mean moving the duals out of Clarksville to a bigger building, but one measure of success should be the number of PARTICIPANTS in a sport. Did it help or hurt NCAA basketball when they expanded to 64 teams ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

You need to understand that I don't like reducing the teams anymore than you do but I do know how the TSSAA reacts to most situations. The TSSAA is all but busted due to the legal case with BA and if BA wins the latest case before the US Supreme Court (like they won the last one) it is likely the TSSAA will have to charge all of the TSSAA member schools X number of dollars to pay off Brentwood Academy and their legal expenses. Let's not forget that since the TSSAA went to D1 & D2 you now have more championships played in every sport and that my friend does cost money. With the championships in all sports now "watered down" less fans are attending games which results in less revenue for the schools & the TSSAA. The only way for the TSSAA to begin making money again is to place everyone back together and have less state champions in each sport.

With the population of Tennessee being what it is we should have no more than following divisions in each sport:

Football 4, Basketball 3, Baseball 3, Track & Field 1, VB 2, Individual Wrestling 1, Dual Wrestling 2, Bowling 1, Softball 3, Soccer 2, Golf 1, Tennis 1, Cross Country 1.

[walkenvol]

cbg - Does anyone have access to the balance sheet of the tourney as its hard to comprehend the expense side of the equation being reduced proportionatly to the number of participating teams. TSSAA gets the gate which if Momma and Daddy only show up is $32 per wrestler with 14 on a team is $458. 28 teams this year means a $12,776 gate which should be conservative since most teams bring more then 14 and lots of folks attend who don't have a son participating. 12 officials = $2400 plus $600 for a room on Friday. Police and custodians = $800. Awards = $500 totaling $4300 expense. Who are they buying rooms for besides officials? Still have over $8400 unaccounted for plus any profits from merchandise sales so there must be a ton of hidden costs somewhere.

[Trouble Maker]

QUOTE(walkenvol @ Feb 6 2007 - 01:47 PM) 826360561[/snapback]

cbg - Does anyone have access to the balance sheet of the tourney as its hard to comprehend the expense side of the equation being reduced proportionatly to the number of participating teams. TSSAA gets the gate which if Momma and Daddy only show up is $32 per wrestler with 14 on a team is $458. 28 teams this year means a $12,776 gate which should be conservative since most teams bring more then 14 and lots of folks attend who don't have a son participating. 12 officials = $2400 plus $600 for a room on Friday. Police and custodians = $800. Awards = $500 totaling $4300 expense. Who are they buying rooms for besides officials? Still have over $8400 unaccounted for plus any profits from merchandise sales so there must be a ton of hidden costs somewhere.

 

 

They actually pay for some of those refs and put them up. I felt sure there was one or two who were doing an apprentice program.

[Dragon Fly]

I have asked some local coaches about this claim by the TSSAA that they lose money at the State Duals. I have been told that when the TSSAA budgets their expenses for the year and if they think the State Duals should bring in $10,000 and the tournament only brings in $9,800 they will claim a $200 loss. That is what I have heard. So in reality, there really is no loss just a miscalculation on their part. If I am wrong on this I will stand corrected. On the other hand I was quite amazed at the lack of good officiating this past weekend. There were a couple of good ones but for the most part it was less than desirable.

[jakesdad]

Bayou Bear makes a good argument for moving the State Duals to Chattanooga. I agree that attendance should be among the most important considerations for the location of the State Duals tournament. More fans create more excitement, and I can’t think of anything that could contribute more to wrestling growth and popularity.

 

SuperZ, I read and appreciate your post. I also appreciate the work done for the tournament this year by all of the Clarksville boosters who donated considerable time to the event. Please help me, however, to better understand the position that you have communicated.

 

QUOTE(SuperZ @ Feb 6 2007 - 07:01 AM) 826360100[/snapback]

 

Lets get over the Chattanooga is the best so lets do everything here mentality and grow successful programs in the other areas because having competition is more fun than beating everyone 76-0 (not Soddies fault) or some of the other lopsided scores that occur because other areas aren't there yet.

 

 

 

 

I sense that increasing parity among the state’s wrestling programs is your priority. If I have “connected the dots” properly, you make the implication that a program is successful in direct proportion to their proximity to the State Duals. If you’re right, and you have the goal of parity, then should you not argue that we move the tournament to one of the weaker regions in the state. After all, Clarksville High School has a very solid, proven program (i.e. a good facility, a strong team, and very good booster support), and hence, does not need any additional help from the tournament’s venue. And yet, you express a seemingly sincere interest in keeping the tournament in Clarksville. Have I misunderstood?

 

I am still relatively new as a fan to high school wrestling, and it seems really odd to me that we have the State Duals at the facility of one of the competing high schools (as opposed to a neutral site). I suspect that Clarksville’s very large gym and “center of the state” location made sense when the site was chosen many years ago. If the reason for the Clarksville site for the Duals is more complex than that, someone please enlighten me.

 

One final thought, I think that the $8.00 admission is a bargain. Since this is a once a year event that is huge to wrestling, wouldn’t fans pay more if the venue were changed to a site that was not ‘free’?

[cbg]

QUOTE(walkenvol @ Feb 6 2007 - 12:47 PM) 826360561[/snapback]

cbg - Does anyone have access to the balance sheet of the tourney as its hard to comprehend the expense side of the equation being reduced proportionatly to the number of participating teams. TSSAA gets the gate which if Momma and Daddy only show up is $32 per wrestler with 14 on a team is $458. 28 teams this year means a $12,776 gate which should be conservative since most teams bring more then 14 and lots of folks attend who don't have a son participating. 12 officials = $2400 plus $600 for a room on Friday. Police and custodians = $800. Awards = $500 totaling $4300 expense. Who are they buying rooms for besides officials? Still have over $8400 unaccounted for plus any profits from merchandise sales so there must be a ton of hidden costs somewhere.

 

 

 

I don't have a clue as to how you could get the exact financial figures for the state duals. My guess is they would have to make them avaliable to any resident of Tennessee. The problem is they may hide the state duals in a bracket that says "state championships" and you would have no way to distinguish one championship form another.

 

Another poster stated that they may budget a profit of X dollars for each championship and if they fall short of that X figure they claim a loss of revenue when in truth they have made a net profit. Who knows what they are doing as it has been my opinion for several years that the TSSAA is nothing more than a big government agency.

 

We may have reached a time and place in Tennessee that the TSSAA should be operated by a group of professionals from each region that volunteer their services to help the youth of this state. You could have a small paid staff @ the TSSAA offices and allow each region to have a group of professional people (non educators & politicans) that make most of the decisions in that region within the guidlines of the TSSAA rules. Something tells me that in Middle Tennessee a person like Tommy Frist (HCA) or Monroe Carroll (Central Parking) would know a little more about how to handle money, run an organizaton and making decisions than the Board of Control we now have.

[maj]

QUOTE(cbg @ Feb 6 2007 - 05:14 PM) 826360838[/snapback]

I don't have a clue as to how you could get the exact financial figures for the state duals. My guess is they would have to make them avaliable to any resident of Tennessee. The problem is they may hide the state duals in a bracket that says "state championships" and you would have no way to distinguish one championship form another.

 

Another poster stated that they may budget a profit of X dollars for each championship and if they fall short of that X figure they claim a loss of revenue when in truth they have made a net profit. Who knows what they are doing as it has been my opinion for several years that the TSSAA is nothing more than a big government agency.

 

We may have reached a time and place in Tennessee that the TSSAA should be operated by a group of professionals from each region that volunteer their services to help the youth of this state. You could have a small paid staff @ the TSSAA offices and allow each region to have a group of professional people (non educators & politicans) that make most of the decisions in that region within the guidlines of the TSSAA rules. Something tells me that in Middle Tennessee a person like Tommy Frist (HCA) or Monroe Carroll (Central Parking) would know a little more about how to handle money, run an organizaton and making decisions than the Board of Control we now have.

 

 

 

Rule # 1 in trying to effect change: No one in power ever willingly gives it up.

 

The Carter clan will not go quietly

[justwrestle05]

I would have loved to attend the state duals. My son wrestles and we love the sport, but my daughter plays baketball and we live in Nashville. I'm sure there are alot of other families with the same circumstance. If the duals were held in Nashville, we would have been there for most of it. Not sure how you fix that issue. The Belmont arena sounds like a great idea. It would help the sport if we were to get some local news coverage in Nashville for the state duals.

[walkenvol]

justwrestle05 - C'mon now, Clarksville is almost a suburb of Nashville. There is no solution for folks that are deterred by that short of a drive.

[amIaCoach]

QUOTE(CoachDelgado @ Feb 6 2007 - 05:41 AM) 826360096[/snapback]

TNMAT,

Look into it at Belmont. I agree that Artie and his gang at Clarksville do an excellent job of running the event with the space they have available. A setting with 6 mats in one room would be beneficial to all. There were numerous times when I wanted to watch both the championship and consolation matches and had to choose. In the same room I could watch the key matches I wanted without having to move.

 

The TSSAA is usually open to anyone willing to run a cost effective and improved event from the previous year. My understanding is that the state duals is open for bid every year.

 

 

They should ask the Middle Tennessee Refs to run they do a great job on their tourny.......

[SuperZ]

QUOTE(jakesdad @ Feb 6 2007 - 02:48 PM) 826360732[/snapback]

Bayou Bear makes a good argument for moving the State Duals to Chattanooga. I agree that attendance should be among the most important considerations for the location of the State Duals tournament. More fans create more excitement, and I can’t think of anything that could contribute more to wrestling growth and popularity.

 

SuperZ, I read and appreciate your post. I also appreciate the work done for the tournament this year by all of the Clarksville boosters who donated considerable time to the event. Please help me, however, to better understand the position that you have communicated.

I sense that increasing parity among the state’s wrestling programs is your priority. If I have “connected the dots” properly, you make the implication that a program is successful in direct proportion to their proximity to the State Duals. If you’re right, and you have the goal of parity, then should you not argue that we move the tournament to one of the weaker regions in the state. After all, Clarksville High School has a very solid, proven program (i.e. a good facility, a strong team, and very good booster support), and hence, does not need any additional help from the tournament’s venue. And yet, you express a seemingly sincere interest in keeping the tournament in Clarksville. Have I misunderstood?

 

I am still relatively new as a fan to high school wrestling, and it seems really odd to me that we have the State Duals at the facility of one of the competing high schools (as opposed to a neutral site). I suspect that Clarksville’s very large gym and “center of the state” location made sense when the site was chosen many years ago. If the reason for the Clarksville site for the Duals is more complex than that, someone please enlighten me.

 

One final thought, I think that the $8.00 admission is a bargain. Since this is a once a year event that is huge to wrestling, wouldn’t fans pay more if the venue were changed to a site that was not ‘free’?

 

 

 

Probably no clear way to say that you are right and wrong at the same time but people who know me know that I am always willing to try. So....

 

We are very interested in keeping the duals at CHS, I stated that very clearly and meant it. CHS has done very well in wrestling since 1999 and are very proud of our recent accomplishments but we are not the only school in Clarksville, there are 6 public high schools up here in this county we want all of them to be as successful and competitive as the Chattanooga area, look at areas in the east and west (every where but Chattanooga) and you don't see the same level of success and I wonder why. So is it the college program that makes wrestling a real sport? Is it the proximity to Georgia wrestling? I just think that a higher level of competitiveness across the state with the Chat area would make it more fun for everybody. How much fun is it to drive to Clarksville and whip everybody grab the trophy and go home?

 

As far as the crowds go, whether its the weather or the lack of seats at semi final time, the numbers attending the duals was down. Kids play basketball in Chattanooga and Greenville and Memphis and other places so if we move it to Nashville for those parents there to eliminate the conflict of basketball and wrestling it still only fixes it for a relative few. The Nashville stations seem to be able to find Clarksville when some one is killed or a tornado hits etc, so them not covering good news or promoting the duals seems a lame excuse to move the duals to Nashville too.

 

As far as a few years ago Clarksville was close to the center of the state and now with population growth maybe we need to move it some where else argument does not fly. Clarksville has had one of if not the highest rate of growth in the state so if anything using that argument it should stay.

 

The reality is Clarksville is in the geographic center east to west but not north to south. I am fairly sure that the same type of statement can be made for Chattanooga sort of. I think that TSSAA looks at access to an area and drive time as part of its criteria but it must not be the main criteria or Chattanooga would not have the individual tournament and we would not have the dual tournament.

 

As far as more seating we can do it , on the same piece of property we have access to 3 gymnasiums and could put two mats in each and then fans could stay as long as they like in any gym and watch as many teams as they want. The logistics are a little more difficult as far as ticket sales, hospitality rooms, concessions etc but could be done. With that we could handle the current situation and the future growth for a while .

 

I said it before and I will say it again, we love hosting the duals and hope to continue for many years. We never know if we are going to be in the duals or not. The team works hard to be there but that is no guarantee we will. There is no such thing as a neutral site. The fans attending make it biased toward one team or another. Bradley brings as many fans as we do to the CHS gym so do MBA, Baylor etc.

 

Bottom line is this we are proud to have hosted the duals these last few years and would love to keep doing it. Only TSSAA knows for sure where it will go. I don't think hosting the individual tourney or the dual tourney makes your programs grow there are other factors, success is one of them but what are the others? That is what I am asking as well as campaigning to keep the duals