Lacrosse Is On the Move

[camo092]

QUOTE(knoxlax @ May 9 2007 - 07:29 PM) 826455693[/snapback]who said anything about henry hic high? no mention of getting state wide sanction. georgia and north carolina were offered as comparisons. neither has state wide sanction, so why would you bring that up? both use a county by county system, which could be easily employed to localize the lacrosse in tennessee to the metropolitan areas.

 

georgia was sanctioned in 2002. look it up.

 

i certainly didn't say that the privates were afraid of competition. please reread my posts. i offered that tssaa will not lower the privates, but it would elevate the publics. privates don't want tssaa because it will place restrictions on them (off season practice limitations, possible travel limitations, restriction on length of season, etc) while providing virtually nothing in terms of benefit, other than hanging a "real" state title banner in the gym. tssaa is needed to make schools support the lax teams, and the privates already do this. and by support, i mostly mean that they will allow them to exist (which is a current problem in knox county), use a weight room, and get at least some games on school property.

 

programs fund themselves already. we don't need tssaa money. who is asking for money?

 

i disagree with your assertion that public schools have been on par with privates in nc and georgia. they most certainly have not. only in the last few years have they become consistently competitive, which coincides with sanctioning. 5 years ago, guilford county did not sanction lax. now they do. western guilford is now ranked in the top 5 in nc. count how many guilford schools there are now, after the sanctioning. guilford county has no more transplants than any tennessee county.

 

in tennessee there have been no competitve public schools. 1 germantown team was good 12 years ago. how long did germantown last? as long as their volunteer coach stayed. after germantown faded, farragut took over as top public school. they never won a single playoff game, yet went 4 years without losing to another public. cordova had 1 good team.now ravenwood has the title of best public. they are a great team no doubt. perhaps the public school that breaks into small club of state champs (which are all private). but only time will tell if this is a program that will stay where it is or will it fall back once all those seniors graduate. bhs and franklin have been around for close to fifteen years. same with hillboro. with a few small anomalies (franklins current team), none of these programs have risen within a whisker of the top privates and ZERO have maintained that loft for any amount of time. to suggest that public school programs are rising is ludicrous.

 

to my knowledge. mba, mus and mccallie have lost ZERO games to publics (outside of this recent ravenwood team) in the last FIFTEEN years.

maybe ravenwood is lassiter. but who are the harrisons, miltons, chattahoochies, etc in tennessee?

 

if you doubt the effect of sanctioning on level of play, just watch mecklenberg county. charlotte providence is the only public with any history of success. now that they were elevated from club to varsity, we will see if any of the meck schools become decent. i'm betting the farm that they do.

 

 

If you actually read the article that this whole topic is about you would have read: "The Georgia High School Association added lacrosse as a championship sport for boys and girls in 2005." So yea, "georgia was sanctioned in 2002. look it up," wouldnt eactly be the smart thing to say on this board, unless our #1 journalism source in Middle Tennessee is wrong.

[knoxlax]

QUOTE(camo092 @ May 9 2007 - 06:00 PM) 826455718[/snapback]If you actually read the article that this whole topic is about you would have read: "The Georgia High School Association added lacrosse as a championship sport for boys and girls in 2005." So yea, "georgia was sanctioned in 2002. look it up," wouldnt eactly be the smart thing to say on this board, unless our #1 journalism source in Middle Tennessee is wrong.

 

 

 

http://www.georgialax.com/history.html

 

 

the #1 journalism source in middle tennessee isn't wrong. its just not completely right.

[Redtwin]

Henry County was an example, but any county will support my point. There are very few capable lacrosse coaches in TN, and there are even fewer moving to the area. Let's say we sanction Knox Halls. Who's going to coach that team? What about teams that are area teams? I could be wrong, but I don't believe that area club teams can participate if lacrosse is sanctioned.

 

As I said, lax in GA was not fully sanctioned until 2005, It was sanctioned in 2002, but not fully as a championship sport. There were no real state title banners before 2005.

 

An earlier poster noted that private schools were scared to lose their elite status, which I was pointing out, is not the case. The elite teams in GA year end and year out are, for the most part, the same teams every year. Just like in TN.

 

If you don't think sanctioning is largely about funds, you are mistaken. School facilities may be another large reason, but programs don't become good without good coaches and resources, and those things don't come without money.

 

In 2002, CCDS lost to 3 public school teams. In 2000, DA lost to Chapel Hill. There were plenty of other competitive games. Public schools in GA started being competitive around 2001 or 2002. Chattahoochie won it all in 2003. If you go back a few years farther than that, there were only a dozen or so teams or so playing in each state, most of which were private.

 

MUS lost to Houston in 2006. MBA has lost to Ravenwood twice. Very few private schools have beaten MUS, MBA, or McCallie other than each other. Webb beat MBA once. USN has never beaten any of them and they've been playing forever. Father Ryan and Baylor are winless as well. PJPII has had relatively little success.

 

Charlotte North Meck has had some decent teams for a while now, but again, Charlotte has the advantage of local college programs to boost interest as well as provide coaches, plus being the banking mecca it is, it has lots of lacrosse talent relocate there.

 

IMO,part of the reason that Franklin and Brentwood are not improving to GA public school levels is because they choose not to play in DI.

 

Also IMO, sanctioning lacrosse in TN would lead ot fewer teams playing due to the investment required by the schools.

[knoxlax]

QUOTE(BankofDad @ May 9 2007 - 01:36 PM) 826455575[/snapback]Pros and Cons for both

 

Sanctioning with TSSAA, would make public schools have to provide coaches and fields, maybe equipment. So cheaper for a lot of kids (their parents). More kids get to play. Nothing wrong with that at all.

 

 

would be nice, but its not going to happen. tssaa participation is not about getting money for programs. the last sport sanctioned was bowling, almost exclusively because it wasn't going to cost the tssaa any money. some entreprenuerally adept bowling alley owners got together and offered free usage of their alleys for high school teams.

 

What you may give up is the ability to hire a lacrosse coach that knows lacrosse. Many schools want teachers to coach, so teams may struggle with football coaches trying to learn lacrosse.

 

there is nothing that prohibits knowledgeable coaches from assisting a head coach, no matter how much or how little the head coach knows about the sport. None of the volunteers currently coaching would be shown the door. none.

 

It would be unlikely that a public school could take spring break trips to play in other states. Ravenwood playing Boys Latin probably does not happen. Seasons could be limited and off season opportunities with your coach prohibited.

 

really? did georgia sanctioning the sport stop their teams from playing tennessee teams? why would sanctioning here stop our teams from travelling to them? florida hosts teams from many states that sanction the sport. why would sanctioning keep our teams from travelling?

 

 

And just like in Soccer, you would end up having travel teams that formed their own leagues anyway.

It helped our team to go to camps as a team and to play in a fall league.

 

not sure what you mean by this. are you saying that your presumption that out of state travel would be prohibited, that kids would quit their teams to join a team that is allowed to travel out of state?

 

 

Long term, I think it will become a sanctioned sport, selfishly I think our "public school" (club) lacrosse team and the players benefited by not being under the TSSAA.

 

I have a ton of respect for what ravenwood has accomplished. they are proof of what a public school can do when the school puts its resources behind the team. the problem is that ravenwood's administration has made a conscious choice to treat its program unlike any other public has. in essence, ravenwood resembles mba much more than it does hillsboro. to hold up ravenwood as the poster child for why publics should not want the tssaa is inaccurate. there are far more teams whose administrations refuse to be of any assistance to the lax teams.

 

But, my handle is not "BankofDad" for nothing. It is easy to spend a lot of $$$.

 

 

good luck to ravenwood. they have had a phenominal season. hopefully they go all the way.

[knoxlax]

QUOTE(Redtwin @ May 9 2007 - 07:35 PM) 826455816[/snapback]Henry County was an example, but any county will support my point. There are very few capable lacrosse coaches in TN, and there are even fewer moving to the area. Let's say we sanction Knox Halls. Who's going to coach that team? What about teams that are area teams? I could be wrong, but I don't believe that area club teams can participate if lacrosse is sanctioned.

 

cobb county sanctioned lacrosse. was every public in cobb forced to field a lax team? knox halls would have a team because they had enough kids to field a team, not because tssaa sanctions the sport in the county and forces them to field a team. are you suggesting that we wait till their is an abundance of capable coaches before we grow the sport?

 

As I said, lax in GA was not fully sanctioned until 2005, It was sanctioned in 2002, but not fully as a championship sport. There were no real state title banners before 2005.

 

the only thing that changed in 2005 is that the state winner got to raise a nice banner. 2002 is when schools had to implement their programs in a varsity manner. follow the timeline. see a connection to sanctioning of the sport with the rise of the publics?

 

An earlier poster noted that private schools were scared to lose their elite status, which I was pointing out, is not the case. The elite teams in GA year end and year out are, for the most part, the same teams every year. Just like in TN.

 

really? tell me how good lassiter was in the late 90's. now if you mean lovett, westminster, and to a lesser degree darlington, then i will say that they are consistently good. how good was milton and harrison this year? where were they before 2002?

 

If you don't think sanctioning is largely about funds, you are mistaken. School facilities may be another large reason, but programs don't become good without good coaches and resources, and those things don't come without money.

 

we already exist without tssaa funds. explain how joining tssaa changes that? does tssaa have rules stating that teams can't fund their own budget?

 

In 2002, CCDS lost to 3 public school teams. In 2000, DA lost to Chapel Hill. There were plenty of other competitive games. Public schools in GA started being competitive around 2001 or 2002. Chattahoochie won it all in 2003. If you go back a few years farther than that, there were only a dozen or so teams or so playing in each state, most of which were private.

 

does pointing out these few games dispute my assertion that publics are not on par with privates? looks to me that publics are beating the historically strong teams at a better clip these days then 10 years ago. i think sanctioning is the reason.

 

 

MUS lost to Houston in 2006. MBA has lost to Ravenwood twice. Very few private schools have beaten MUS, MBA, or McCallie other than each other. Webb beat MBA once. USN has never beaten any of them and they've been playing forever. Father Ryan and Baylor are winless as well. PJPII has had relatively little success.

 

again, the fact that in 12 years of clubs playing varsities, you can pinpoint victories for the clubs only proves my point. the clubs can not compete consistently.

 

Charlotte North Meck has had some decent teams for a while now, but again, Charlotte has the advantage of local college programs to boost interest as well as provide coaches, plus being the banking mecca it is, it has lots of lacrosse talent relocate there.

 

so why have the meck teams lagged so far behing the raleigh teams? could it be that the meck teams are club and the raleigh teams are varsity?

 

IMO,part of the reason that Franklin and Brentwood are not improving to GA public school levels is because they choose not to play in DI.

 

playing d1 hasn't elevated farragut or houston yet. ravenwood has elevated, but will it last? i know that a georgia public will have a legit shot at their state title every year from now on. i can't say the same for tennessee.

 

Also IMO, sanctioning lacrosse in TN would lead ot fewer teams playing due to the investment required by the schools.

 

show me 1 state that sanctioning caused the sport to shrink.

[lax4life32]

QUOTE(Redtwin @ May 9 2007 - 04:14 PM) 826455642[/snapback]NC public schools have been competitive with privates for several years, particularly some of the publics in the Riverside and Chapel Hill areas. Public schools in TN are not going to shell out money for lacrosse regardless of wether lacrosse is a sanctioned sport. The public schools that are competitive in Atlanta are some of the most affluent public schools in the country and some of the largest in ATL. GA did not fully sanction lacrosse until 2005, and the majority of those programs are funded by the parents of the players and some fund raising. There is almost no lacrosse outside of Atlanta in GA so you can't really say lacrosse is a big priority in the state. The same is true in TN. Outside of your larger metropolitan areas, you are not likely to see a growth in lacrosse. Ravenwood, BHS, Centennial, Franklin, Houston, etc have all done a great job of growing programs without help from the TSSAA. Atlanta and Charlotte are also unique situations do to the large number of transplants they receive from the northeast, primarily due to their job climates. TN receives a lot of its transplants from the west, where lacrosse is still growing as well.

 

BankofDad is also correct about the coaching situation. Who do you think would coach lacrosse at Henry County Hich School? Probably some assistant football coach who watched a video on lacrosse. Not really the type of coach that's concerned with growing the game.

 

Finally, to say that the private schools the play lacrosse don't want to sanction the sport because of a fear of competition is laughable. MBA, MUS, McCallie and CBHS regularly schedule games with high caliber teams outside of TN, so they are obviously not scared to mix it up with teams that may be better. I'm sure those teams would love to be able to find more competitive games in their own backyards so that they don't have to fork out the time, energy, and money associated with road trips just to play good teams. Ravenwood has done exactly what Lassiter did. They generated a lot of interest and used parental support and fundraising along with some support from the school to build a strong team. Farragut has had some competitive teams in the past, as have Brentwood and Franklin. It can be done, but it doesn't happen over night.

 

 

 

I dont think sanctioning is really going to boost publics as much as everyone thinks i mean if you have some good athletes that want to play and a coach that knows lacrosse then you can have a good team. I mean look at the public schools in TN that are doing well this year or did last year. It is getting to the point where there can be some serious competition with public schools and private schools as is without sanctioning. I bet in the next few years we will see some public schools stepping it up and beating some of the top 4 or 5 DI teams. Also out of the 60 sumn teams in NC one of them is Christ School that is ranked 12th overall, they are a private school. Franklin tied with them when they played in the Knoxville Jamboree and if it wasnt for the short overitme i really do think Franklin could have pulled away, and I bet Ravenwood could win against most of the GA and NC teams. That goes to show that a public school program that is backed and supported by the school like Ravenwood is can be just as good as any private school in the south. If more schools would step up and support lacrosse teams with fields and facilities and maybe money if needed then i bet there could be more teams like the ones that are being talked about that are under sanctions but without being sanctioned. Just wondering, what is everyone thinking about what could be good about lacrosse being sanctioned by the current TSSAA with all that is going on with them and how they restrict what goes on with the sport? The main thing, and almost only thing, i see is that maybe some more teams would arise and there could be more backing from schools.

[TSLA]

A fantastic thread. If any of you have access to a high school Athletic Director in TN, please pick their brain about this exact topic. They are the administrators that deal with the TSSAA on a daily basis and could really provide some great feedback on what the TSSAA would do for lacrosse in TN. Growth is one thing, but positive growth is an entirely different beast. Players, coaches, parents, school administration and officials have to agree on a philosophy that fits a program and work together to meet those goals. Ravenwood set their goals high and are in contention for a state championship. To repeat some sentiments already posted, it won't happen overnight, and sanctioning won't make the money appear. Based on this season, Franklin could compete at the D1 level next year and Lausanne has played a schedule this year that is preparing them for D1. It's happening...

[Redtwin]

Show me one state where sanctioning caused the sport to grow. There is no direct link between sanctioning and growth. Lacrosse was growing at a fever pace in Atlanta before the sport was sanctioned, as it was in NC. FL didn't recognize the sport until 2004, and it still isn't sanctioned, and lacrosse in the sunshine state is developing very well. California didn't sanction it until 2006, well after teams from CA showed up on the national lacrosse map. TX still doesn't recognize it, and TX lacrosse is some of the best south of the Mason Dixon line. The sport has flourished without any form of recognition in several states, and it most likely would have done so in GA and NC without sanctioning.

[THE SQUAD]

Good article in the Tennessean. Great to get some pub!

 

It's cool that they mentioned Cookeville!

Now,I'm not gonna say I know a lot about lacrosse,I don't.

I'm way too old to have ever had the chance to play it for the Cavs.

It seems like a great sport though,that interests me a lot.If they'd had it when I was in school I might seriously have dropped baseball for it!

They cover it pretty well in the Herald-Citizen(Cookeville paper) and they seem to be doing very well at it a relatively short period of time.The enthusiasm for it is definitely there!

 

 

THE SQUAD /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

[iamavolzfan]

Great discussion and I don't think TSSAA will sanction anytime soon. Too much on their plate as many have listed in other posts and too many issues.

 

Private Schools are better because of better resources, more money and coaching. The bigger problem exists with feeder programs, long term stability of coaching and continuous stable resources at those levels. MBA, and the other private schools have enormous amounts of resources, money, talented and paid coaching staffs and years of stability. They have similar resources at their middle school AND EARLIER levels. Until public schools match that level of money, facilities, coaching and steady feeder programs their ability to compete with the KINGS of lacrosse will be limited.

 

Also, many quotes about Franklin being around as a long term program and why not playing Div 1? The facts: Franklin is in its third year of competition and with its second coach. The kids at that school started with 6 upperclassmen and 16 Soph and Frosh three years ago and have improved because of the time playing together and the ability to get better by having more playing time. Hardly a long term program when considering the other schools in Div 1 and Div2.

[CoachT]

For those of you who have teams at school, or predominantly from your school, is there a certain sport that the players tend to come from? Soccer, football, basketball.....?

[lax4life32]

QUOTE(coacht @ May 10 2007 - 07:46 PM) 826456760[/snapback]For those of you who have teams at school, or predominantly from your school, is there a certain sport that the players tend to come from? Soccer, football, basketball.....?

 

 

There are alot of football and hockey players that play from what i know of.