Open Zone Same As Privates That Recruit

[JaxMan]

Just rean on another thread that Weakley County has totally open school zones...a kid leaving the 8th grafe can choose any school in county to play for and not have to pay any fee at all

[VolunteerGeneral]

There are lots of kids that live in Union City that attend Obion County high school. A whole lot!

[JaxMan]

There are lots of kids that live in Union City that attend Obion County high school. A whole lot!

 

 

the more I hear the more it seems publics have more kids playing out of zone than privates

[zonepirate]

the more I hear the more it seems publics have more kids playing out of zone than privates

 

 

I think it is just like what you hear about the number of private schools that recruit....blown out of proportion

[JaxMan]

I think it is just like what you hear about the number of private schools that recruit....blown out of proportion

 

 

I am sure that's true...my point is that privates got a multipler over it even if it is blown out of proportion...so why not be consistent...treat privates and open zone schools one and the same...they both have the opportuinity to get kids from other zones...

[SwamiSays]

I am sure that's true...my point is that privates got a multipler over it even if it is blown out of proportion...so why not be consistent...treat privates and open zone schools one and the same...they both have the opportuinity to get kids from other zones...

 

 

 

I think on an individual basis, many of the concerns voiced here are valid. However, I don't think most are looking at the bigger picture that has been happening for a long time. With the influx of privates that have sprung up in the last 40 years as a response to desegregation in the larger urban areas, the privates have pulled many of the top athletes away from public schools. Whether by intentional recruiting or by offering the perception of a better education, this is what has happened. Whether or not the education is better or not is up for debate and answered on an individual basis by each student and their family. The more rural areas then jumped on the private institution band wagon and several privates have opened up in those areas.

In many districts around the state, the public schools began to offer open zones to allow parents a choice. The choices then became not just a public or private school, it became a choice of several publics or whatever privates may be in the area. The open zoning is an effort by public schools to keep or bring back the kids they lost to privates. In urban school districts, open zoned schools became a reality with the advent of No Child Left Behind, and were originally intended only for schools that were deemed failing schools. This is not much of an advantage for any school. No matter the athletic ability of a kid, most parents wont let their child go to a failing school just to play a sport. Public districts also have opened magnet schools as another enticement to retain or gain back students lost to privates. However, there are academic admission standards that must be met by students that are can be restrictive. So that also makes it very difficult to use that as a tool for publics to bring in enough top quality athletes to allow their teams able to compete with schools with multipliers.

My point? While there does seem to be a case for a multiplier for open zoned publics, and magnets, when looked as a whole, the advantage of these schools minimal at best. Publics in many cases just cannot match up to privates. A failing public school system as a whole has lead to some fantastically talented private teams. A failing public system has also lead to some fantasticly talented ACADEMIC private schools, but there is never much argument about that, is there? There are some fantastically successful publics out there, both academically and athletically.

With sports minded competitors, advantages are always exposed and complained about. Everyone wants to win. But not everyone gets to. Thats life. Privates do the best they can to attract students, and so do publics. Thats the nature of the beast.

I have worked in both public and privates, as a coach, a teacher, and administrator in both settings. I have sat on committees and boards at each of those positions. I know what is said behind closed doors. There is no answer to the problems that everyone thinks they are pointind a finger at. There is a dichotomy that cannot be solved with a multiplier or a different classification or a merit system. This is just they way things are with the world we live in.

Practice your teams and play your games. If you win, learn to win with grace and humility. If you lose, learn the same lesson. Hard work does not always pay off, on the field. Great talent does not always pay off, on the field. It is the lesson learned from those experiences that does pay off. Coaches nad parents, set that example for your kids, and the lessons that sports are supposed teach will be learned by all of those who are privileged enough to ever step foot on any court or field of organized high school competition.

[JaxMan]

I agree with most everything you said...bu tthe bottom line is pri vates that played for years in public divisions and got pelted worked harder and succeeded...they feel theat hard wark was rewarded by a mulitpiler...but we accepted it because many felt we still had the advantage of not being limited by zones and that was the reason for our success...I am certain that debate will last long after I am gone...but if that is truely the feeling then why are open zone schools with the same freedom to cross any zone to attract students not result in a multipiler...it's either an advantage for both or not an advantage for both...I am okay with either...just be consistent

[SwamiSays]

I agree with most everything you said...bu tthe bottom line is pri vates that played for years in public divisions and got pelted worked harder and succeeded...they feel theat hard wark was rewarded by a mulitpiler...but we accepted it because many felt we still had the advantage of not being limited by zones and that was the reason for our success...I am certain that debate will last long after I am gone...but if that is truely the feeling then why are open zone schools with the same freedom to cross any zone to attract students not result in a multipiler...it's either an advantage for both or not an advantage for both...I am okay with either...just be consistent

 

 

 

You are right, the privates did get punished for their success and for the perception that they were recruiting. But because a private is a typically more attractive educational setting, they do have an innate advantage that the publics will never have. In many cases, the only inducement an open zoned public can offer is that they are an open zoned school. Privates are basically the same as far as zoning(open), with the added advantage of being able to tout a more attractive education package. When the publics started offering open zoning, they in essence were trying to self level the playing field with the privates that were by nature already open zoned.

I dont know if you are a golfer or not, the the advantages of privates over publics can be looked at like this; where would you rather play golf? The municipal course that is a little shabby, a little run down, and who knows who will show up and be playing in front of or behind you? Or would you rather be playing at a country club, with exclusive membership, plush greens, and a guy handing you a towel in the restroom? The question is definitely rhetorical, but I think it goes a long way to prove the point...by nature, privates have advantages that publics will never have.

Wins are wins, losses are losses. There are lessons to be learned from both. Ultimately, high schools sports are about teaching and learning those lessons, not about the win/loss column. Many of us often get caught up in the stats and trophies and forget the purpose of even having athletics to begin with.

When a school gets a "national ranking" because of their success at a sport, great for them. It makes all Tennessee athletics look better and makes no difference if they are public or private. People look and say, "wow, they've got some athletes down there in Tennessee." They dont typically say, "wow, I bet they are recruiting in Tennesse and that multiplier they have isnt working at all."

[Baldcoach]

You are right, the privates did get punished for their success and for the perception that they were recruiting. But because a private is a typically more attractive educational setting, they do have an innate advantage that the publics will never have.

 

And they are free. And they, by definition, can't be punished for recruiting. And they are free...did I mention that?

Which is an innate advantage that no private will ever have. Thus, both types of school have some innate advantages. Why are we punishing for one type and not for the other?

 

In many cases, the only inducement an open zoned public can offer is that they are an open zoned school. Privates are basically the same as far as zoning(open), with the added advantage of being able to tout a more attractive education package. When the publics started offering open zoning, they in essence were trying to self level the playing field with the privates that were by nature already open zoned.

 

Nope, most open zoned publics have always been that way or are recently converted to magnets. In other words, this has always been an advantage for certain publics, now it is available to the magnets too. As for privates being 'open zoned', see the point in the first reply...they are really not open zoned. While they get kids from a large GEOGRAPHIC zone, they have a fairly restricted FINANCIAL zone...other wise all the small privates would be as big as the big publics in their counties.

 

I dont know if you are a golfer or not, the the advantages of privates over publics can be looked at like this; where would you rather play golf? The municipal course that is a little shabby, a little run down, and who knows who will show up and be playing in front of or behind you? Or would you rather be playing at a country club, with exclusive membership, plush greens, and a guy handing you a towel in the restroom? The question is definitely rhetorical, but I think it goes a long way to prove the point...by nature, privates have advantages that publics will never have.

 

I don't consider the question rhetorical...in fact, it proves my point. Which course has the most players? The municipal course. Why? Most people can't afford country club membership or the fees of the club courses...so they play the municipal ones. In other words, your assumption that a nicer course = advantage is only valid of the nicer course fees are the same as the other course and membership in the club is free...if not then there are actually LESS people who would choose the country club...because they can't afford it.

 

Wins are wins, losses are losses. There are lessons to be learned from both. Ultimately, high schools sports are about teaching and learning those lessons, not about the win/loss column. Many of us often get caught up in the stats and trophies and forget the purpose of even having athletics to begin with.

 

Amen brother, preach on! Let's get us all back together and play instead of teaching our kids that when we lose to a group that isn't just like ours there must be something unfair that they are doing.

 

When a school gets a "national ranking" because of their success at a sport, great for them. It makes all Tennessee athletics look better and makes no difference if they are public or private. People look and say, "wow, they've got some athletes down there in Tennessee." They dont typically say, "wow, I bet they are recruiting in Tennesse and that multiplier they have isnt working at all."

 

This is why I am a huge fan of Maryville's program and Alcoa's program and South Pitt's program and...well, you get the idea even though I coach in a small private. We should always reward excellence and aspire to it. And this is why the multiplier and DII make me angry. Because they are punishments for being excellent in the name of the non-existent idea of 'fairness'...sounds like communism to me.

[SwamiSays]

I really don't want to get into any kind of argument with you, coach. It seems that in some of your responses that is the direction you want to take things. I am a supporter of both public and private and the lessons that athletics teach. As far as the differences in public and private and the difference between free or cost, that makes it that much easier for privates to get who they want in their building. We are all aware of schools that have found ways of assistance to bring in students who have a particular talent.

Back to the golf course thing, because of its exclusivity of a country club, it makes it more desireable for the masses to find a way in. If some how, some way, a way onto that course appears, do you think someone will turn that down so they can keep playing on their "free" but run down and worn out course? Probably not. That is the reason for the multipier. A better product has advantages because they are a better product. Do I think thats fair? No I don't. A Big Bertha driver has advantages over a k-mart Northwestern. Do you handicap the Bertha? No. Would it be fair to do so? No. But you cannot deny that the advantage exists.

Some disgruntled and possibly misguided individuals found a way to get an unfair handicapping system in place in high school sports. Its wrong. Period. There is no way to level any playing field. The whole purpose of playing any game is to figure out who is better, ergo the team with more advantages. After a number of instances when the perception was that some privates had too many advantages, a system was put in place to try to limit those advantages. My point is that everyone needs to begin to better face the cards they are dealt. A handicapping system is in place with the multiplier. It has affected some greatly, others none at all. But all are under that system and must play within those boundaries. The only fairness to about any sport is that you get to play. In football, put your best 11 on the field and expect the other team to do the same.

The publics are handicapped by being public and are very limited in their attractiveness. The privates are being handicapped because of their attractiveness. So which is better or worse? It doesnt matter. Its what we have and no matter what it put in place, one team will win, and one will lose. Someone will go home happy and the other will go home less than happy. People (coaches, parents, athletes) need to stop getting their self worth tied up in their wins and losses. It seems that too many people have forgotten that its ok to lose, if you do it with your head held high and with your best effort. There are lessons to be learned with losses that are just as important as lessons to be learned iwth wins.

Coach, I have read yor posts for years. You are an intelligent and well read person. I know you will apply your form of logic and perspective to pick apart my post and thats fine. Just try to do it with a little more universal perspective, not just one of a small private school who is feeling picked on for being small, private, and with its share of successes. I've been in schools of over 3,000 and in schools of less than 500. I've been public and I've been private. I feel I have a broad enough and deep enough understanding to speak fairly intellligently to both sides of the equation.

[JaxMan]

Swami...I think that just as all publics are not the same...all prrivates are not...I too have seen facilities that are plush at private schools like MUS, Baylor etc...but most of those are already in the aid division...the small privates like JCS which I follow, Fayette Academy and TCA are nice but certainly no better an in some cases not as nice as the public schools we play...as for education most magnets are offering programs that compare to privates at least the small one again...here in Jackson Madison Academy a public magnet school offers a education second to none including privates...I understand there are differences...and I iwll readily admit some of thoise offer privates an advantage...but the are differences that are a disadvantage as well...an open zone magnet school is free as opposed to a tuition that can range from $5k to 15K...there are some higher but again they are typically in division 2 or at least not a small private...so in the end schools who are much closer in nature (open zones and small privates) than either is to a small rural public school are treated very different...I honestly see many of your points and have no interest in arguing just an informed dialog...you seem as if you have experince inside both type schools and I therefore respect your feedback...I think both sides of the argument have painted the other unfairly...open zone schools actaully have a limited number of kids from out of county playing...privates (at least the small ones I am discussing) have had most of their students for years and did not go out to get them to play sports...sure some large privates did, but not the small privates...both sides have a biased opinion of the other...I guess I just feel somewhat like our small private school is paying for the sins of large privates that have now gone to division 2 and we are left paying the price...and when a public school does many of the same things a blind eye is turned...thanks for your input

[SwamiSays]

Swami...I think that just as all publics are not the same...all prrivates are not...I too have seen facilities that are plush at private schools like MUS, Baylor etc...but most of those are already in the aid division...the small privates like JCS which I follow, Fayette Academy and TCA are nice but certainly no better an in some cases not as nice as the public schools we play...as for education most magnets are offering programs that compare to privates at least the small one again...here in Jackson Madison Academy a public magnet school offers a education second to none including privates...I understand there are differences...and I iwll readily admit some of thoise offer privates an advantage...but the are differences that are a disadvantage as well...an open zone magnet school is free as opposed to a tuition that can range from $5k to 15K...there are some higher but again they are typically in division 2 or at least not a small private...so in the end schools who are much closer in nature (open zones and small privates) than either is to a small rural public school are treated very different...I honestly see many of your points and have no interest in arguing just an informed dialog...you seem as if you have experince inside both type schools and I therefore respect your feedback...I think both sides of the argument have painted the other unfairly...open zone schools actaully have a limited number of kids from out of county playing...privates (at least the small ones I am discussing) have had most of their students for years and did not go out to get them to play sports...sure some large privates did, but not the small privates...both sides have a biased opinion of the other...I guess I just feel somewhat like our small private school is paying for the sins of large privates that have now gone to division 2 and we are left paying the price...and when a public school does many of the same things a blind eye is turned...thanks for your input

 

 

I think the biggest difference that I have seen is that the private school students are typically there as a matter of a positive choice made by the family. The public school kids, where there have been zoning rules, are there by a matter of enforcement of zoning. That completely changes the atmosphere of a school. Honestly, it has been my experience that many publics offer an education that is in many instances superior to privates. Because of sheer size, they have a much greater range of course offerings and AP courses. With that being said as an advantage for publics, privates have the advantage of atmosphere. My public experiences have shown me that in many cases, there is a general uncouth and base behavior that occurs in many public schools. A kid in a public school has a much greater chance of hearing profanity or seeing a fight than in a private. Therefore, parents who do not want their kids to see these types of behaviors(and almost all parents fall into this category), and can afford to or can find a way to, will almost always chose a private over a public. So now you have a distinct advantage slanted towards privates. You have to ask this question; why are the kids in privates schools there? Because someone in their lives didnt want them in a public. Why are the public kids in publics? Because, for many of them, there was no other choice or alternative.

You are definitely correct in that the small privates are paying the price for what the large DII privates have caused. Even with that being the case, I don't believe it is that detrimental to the privates to have a multiplier. I personally think that it provides a greater challange and can lead to a greater sense of accomplishment when the successes do occur. And from what I have observed, a lot of the privates who have not been that successful since the advent of the multiplier were not that successful before. I do not mean that in an insulting way at all. Also, there is a natural up and down of wins and losses with most programs. Some happened to be on a downswing when the multiplier came into effect, the downswing was made more glaring by the multiplier, but ultimately it has been the multiplier that was solely blamed for the losses.

As for magnets, the could have a very distinct advantage if it were just a matter of choice by a kid to go there. Its not. They must meet certain requirements as far as test scores and academics, and in most cases, they are responsible for their own transportation. Both become prohibitive to many students and the families that want their kids to attend. I am sure there are many more than I am aware of, but know of only a very few magnets who have won state championships, and none to the extent of many publics and privates alike that have won multiple year after year championships