The RAT Plan

[curiousdave]

If they removed all private schools, and kept 5 classes for football, that would be a major joke. Even less meaningful than it is today. It's also unlikely that any private school would remain a TSSAA member.

 

if all the privates pull out and form their own organization

then the publics would be happy for awhile until they begin

to see the ramifications of that

what rules would there be for recruiting?

tssaa would not get half of the playoff tickets money

and its possible the private group would hire all the best refs

 

something to think about

[Baldcoach]

I heard the only reason Maryville isn't 5A now is because some schools in Franklin/Williams Co. moved to 5A and those numbers keep Maryville down.

 

 

 

Sooo....the split out again. sigh

 

Question: How is it fair to put non-aid privates with aid privates? Since the publics declared that giving aid was an advantage so severe that it couldn't be overcome and the only fair thing to do was to split those schools, how is it fair to put the other privates in with them?

 

Answer: Doesn't matter, it isn't about fair or evenness, it's about crybabies who want to blame ANYONE for the fact that they can't win a title so they will blame the privates first. Then they will blame open zoned publics. Then they will blame Magnets. Then they will blame....

 

As long as there is someone else to blame I guess the people driving this farce will be able to feel good about themselves. I wonder what happens when they run out of scapegoats? Oh, yeah, nothing, because they will never run out until they are the champs. Sad...

 

p.s. How many private schools have won championships since the multiplier? How many will win this year?

 

Answer: 1 and 0 for a total of 1:14...well below the ratio of publics to privates in the state. How does that justify a split??

[MVM]

if all the privates pull out and form their own organization

then the publics would be happy for awhile until they begin

to see the ramifications of that

what rules would there be for recruiting?

tssaa would not get half of the playoff tickets money

and its possible the private group would hire all the best refs

 

something to think about

 

If Privates pull out then why would pubics worry about recruiting ?

Ticket money would still be the same, same amount of playoff games.

Ref comment....Well give me a break

[Bighurt]

If Privates pull out then why would pubics worry about recruiting ?

Ticket money would still be the same, same amount of playoff games.

Ref comment....Well give me a break

 

Because all you hear about on this forum is that privates schools have all the advantages because they RECRUIT! Take a gander at the topic titles on this forum.

[soccerdad]

RAT Plan, as in "I smell a..."?

 

If the privates formed their own, wouldn't that be a problem with nfhs - don't they only recognize one association per state?

[BigG]

RAT Plan, as in "I smell a..."?

 

If the privates formed their own, wouldn't that be a problem with nfhs - don't they only recognize one association per state?

 

I believe you are right, and this is the biggest reason that I DON'T want privates to form their own league. I really enjoy playing the local schools like Bearden and Farragut. If we had our own league, they would not be allowed to play us, because we wouldn't be a recognized association. That would be a true shame.

 

I'm with Baldcoach (or it might have been BigHurt... sorry, I am getting old). If all privates were "moved" to D2, it would only be a temporary fix. Yes, it would feel good for a while, but then a certain group of public schools would seem to have an advantage over other schools. I really don't think it is accurate to compare most publics to publics, let alone privates to privates.

 

I would be interested to see the overall picture of state championships across the board PUBLIC vs. PRIVATE. I know football is usually the primary topic on this board, but what does the complete picture look like?

[Baldcoach]

You're gonna hear more about the other sports soon. Why? Because no private is gonna win state in Football this year and suddenly the 'unstoppable' privates with their huge 'advantages' have 1 title out of 15 for the last 3 years. Or, if we are talking percentages, 6.67%. About half of the percentage of total privates vs total publics. So, since the number of Football titles is now squarely in favor of the publics, you will hear about _________ name the sport where the privates win more.

 

Why? Because it is a moving target...the whole private advantage that is.

 

At first it was recruiting...but then all the aid schools moved into DII.

 

Then it was open zones...but then it was pointed out that A. All metro publics and magnets and many non- metro publics are open zoned.

and B. Privates have open GEOGRAPHIC Zones but closed

financial zones...thus they actually have no more kids

to chose from than closed zone publics.

 

Then it was money until it was pointed out that the average DI private runs a DEFICIT budget and still has to pay for all the facilities and taxes that a public does not.

 

Then it was athletes until some simple math showed that the average public has more college level athletes than the average DI privates (most of them never make it because they drop out or don't have the scores to get in).

 

The old fallback has always been domination and state titles and records. But now ALL the dominating teams (multiple recent state winners) are public. All of them. GP is the only private that can lay claim to the 'dominating' title, and they have gotten KILLED for the last 2 years by Alcoa.

 

But someone will come up with something else. Because they just know it has to be so...after all, THEIR school got put out of the playoffs by a private. It doesn't matter that they wouldn't have had a chance against their public brethren...just that it happened to be a private that did it.

 

The sad thing is that other types of schools are gonna get hit too. This is a witch hunt. Any good program that isn't a small, rural, non-open zoned, poor school is gonna get accused of advantages. Because (at least in Tennessee) excellence is no longer a virtue, it is a sin. No one is allowed to be better than anyone else anymore. What the people who are behind this don't understand is that someone is always better, and that if you define 'unfair advantage' as anything that makes someone better then anyone who is good has unfair advantages. The only solution is to make sure no one is good. Sad...no, pitiful.

[Antwan]

You're gonna hear more about the other sports soon. Why? Because no private is gonna win state in Football this year and suddenly the 'unstoppable' privates with their huge 'advantages' have 1 title out of 15 for the last 3 years. Or, if we are talking percentages, 6.67%. About half of the percentage of total privates vs total publics. So, since the number of Football titles is now squarely in favor of the publics, you will hear about _________ name the sport where the privates win more.

 

Why? Because it is a moving target...the whole private advantage that is.

 

At first it was recruiting...but then all the aid schools moved into DII.

 

Then it was open zones...but then it was pointed out that A. All metro publics and magnets and many non- metro publics are open zoned.

and B. Privates have open GEOGRAPHIC Zones but closed

financial zones...thus they actually have no more kids

to chose from than closed zone publics.

 

Then it was money until it was pointed out that the average DI private runs a DEFICIT budget and still has to pay for all the facilities and taxes that a public does not.

 

Then it was athletes until some simple math showed that the average public has more college level athletes than the average DI privates (most of them never make it because they drop out or don't have the scores to get in).

 

The old fallback has always been domination and state titles and records. But now ALL the dominating teams (multiple recent state winners) are public. All of them. GP is the only private that can lay claim to the 'dominating' title, and they have gotten KILLED for the last 2 years by Alcoa.

 

But someone will come up with something else. Because they just know it has to be so...after all, THEIR school got put out of the playoffs by a private. It doesn't matter that they wouldn't have had a chance against their public brethren...just that it happened to be a private that did it.

 

The sad thing is that other types of schools are gonna get hit too. This is a witch hunt. Any good program that isn't a small, rural, non-open zoned, poor school is gonna get accused of advantages. Because (at least in Tennessee) excellence is no longer a virtue, it is a sin. No one is allowed to be better than anyone else anymore. What the people who are behind this don't understand is that someone is always better, and that if you define 'unfair advantage' as anything that makes someone better then anyone who is good has unfair advantages. The only solution is to make sure no one is good. Sad...no, pitiful.

 

 

Actually...it's 1 out of 9...not 15. There are no private schools in 4a or 5a.

 

It's not all about winning titles. Let's look at title games. There have been 10 publics and 8 privates in the title game in the same time period. Private schools make up about...what...15% or so of the total number of schools in division I. That's 15% in the title game 56% of the time. You can use the same to determine open zone/tuition paying schools. Alcoa is the only public school that has dominated in the last 3 years. Dominant is not the word. Is Alcoa

a different animal? If so...why do they have so many DI athletes and dominant teams? Is it the area? Is it the

tuition thing? Their zone is very small.

 

You're using Baldymath again. I don't agree with your numbers.

 

I think the Alcoa/Maryville open zone/tuition paying thing will be addressed soon. I think all schools should

have a defined zone. That includes public and private schools. If you have an athlete from outside that zone...you

should be multiplied the same as private schools. It is not fair to have the same advantages.

 

I think we do have to have some sort of class system. I am not sure how that should be done.

[soccerdad]

Why? Because it is a moving target...

At first it was recruiting...

Then it was open zones...

Then it was money...

Then it was athletes...

 

The old fallback has always been domination and state titles and records. But now ALL the dominating teams (multiple recent state winners) are public. All of them. GP is the only private that can lay claim to the 'dominating' title, and they have gotten KILLED for the last 2 years by Alcoa.

 

But someone will come up with something else.

 

The sad thing is that other types of schools are gonna get hit too. This is a witch hunt. The only solution is to make sure no one is good. Sad...no, pitiful.

 

 

You are right!!! That tromping by Alcoa hurt bad and it is a "witch hunt" by the rural/county schools who can't compete with the metro/private schools. I must say I haven't coached in the rural/county situation, but I've done the metro/private thing. I saw little overall advantage on either side of publics and privates in metro settings. There could possibly be some advantages of metro/private over rural/county, due to their location in more affluent parts of the state. But, what are they?

 

What is it that makes one team better than another? What is is that brings home the trophy? What is it that builds a program that can compete at the highest levels year after year? There are examples of this in both public/private AND rural/county. Success is not limited to one type of school!!!

 

I've seen the best of fields, wieght rooms, locker rooms, fieldhouses, gyms, courts, pitches (soccer fields), uniforms, workout rooms, equipment, concession stands, fans, etc. and the worst of these. But, I really don't think these have much to do with bringing that trophy back. To me the two main ingredients are: #1 the student-athlete #2 the coach.

 

With #2 (the coach) schools are free to go out and buy the best. If the teacher's salary he receives is not enough, then there are MANY inventive ways to pay for the best. This, then, is a non-issue except for the rural/county schools who may be in economically disadvantaged areas, that either don't have the necessary $$ power the to hire the best or the best coaches choose not to live there due to the nature of the area.

 

The main issue we deal with in this argument then, is the student-athlete. If you are in a rural/county area, your power of school choice is limited. Choices abound in metro areas. Thus, if you are 1.) looking for a good academic school, 2.) looking for a good party school, 3.) looking for a good athletic school, 4.) looking for a good religious school, 5.) looking for a performing arts school, 6.) looking for a good college-prep school -- these may be found in the metro areas. Sometimes, several of these may be found in the same school. Thus many schools are competing for the student-athlete. Which one to choose??? Some go out and agressively sell themselves and give out money to get them there (Div II). Others use either their wide array of programs within the school, their uniqueness, their prowess in sports, their quality coaching, etc. to attract (or a combination of these).

 

It is excellence that attracts. Not mediocre. Not bad. Not average. Once a program becomes excellent, it attracts. Basic fact of life. But how to get there?

 

The availabilty of more players, of better quality, is usually a metro phenomenon, due to the fact that "more people = more players". But the competition is high. Sometimes, new programs start up in metro areas (eg. PJII and Ensworth) who open up their wallets to produce competative teams overnight. Most cases are not like that. It often takes decades to arrive at excellence. But, once there "it keeps rollin' along".

 

Thus, the argument is probably more urban vs. rural. The metro schools both private and public are dealing with the same issues. The county and rural schools have their own issues. So maybe we should have 3 divisions. Div I - rural/county Div II - teams that "buy" excellence Div III - metro schools (public and private).

 

What do you think? May not work because somebody will decide that rural schools are at a disadvantage to the county schools, or the open enrollment vs. closed, or the brick school buildings vs. wood school buildings, or rye vs. bermuda...... /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

[MVM]

Because all you hear about on this forum is that privates schools have all the advantages because they RECRUIT! Take a gander at the topic titles on this forum.

 

Well Bighurt....Then with your comment I HOPE PRIVATES GO THEIR OWN WAY. That way privates can recruit all you want and the public schools will be out of your recruiting hair. I HOPE TSSAA does a total 100% split between private and publics.

[Baldcoach]

Well Bighurt....Then with your comment I HOPE PRIVATES GO THEIR OWN WAY. That way privates can recruit all you want and the public schools will be out of your recruiting hair. I HOPE TSSAA does a total 100% split between private and publics.

 

 

He was using others' arguments...

 

Privates don't recruit...it is illegal. Some privates give aid. They are already in DII. Ignorance isn't bliss.

[Baldcoach]

Actually...it's 1 out of 9...not 15. There are no private schools in 4a or 5a.

 

It's not all about winning titles. Let's look at title games. There have been 10 publics and 8 privates in the title game in the same time period. Private schools make up about...what...15% or so of the total number of schools in division I. That's 15% in the title game 56% of the time. You can use the same to determine open zone/tuition paying schools. Alcoa is the only public school that has dominated in the last 3 years. Dominant is not the word. Is Alcoa

a different animal? If so...why do they have so many DI athletes and dominant teams? Is it the area? Is it the

tuition thing? Their zone is very small.

 

You're using Baldymath again. I don't agree with your numbers.

 

I think the Alcoa/Maryville open zone/tuition paying thing will be addressed soon. I think all schools should

have a defined zone. That includes public and private schools. If you have an athlete from outside that zone...you

should be multiplied the same as private schools. It is not fair to have the same advantages.

 

I think we do have to have some sort of class system. I am not sure how that should be done.

 

 

Alcoa, and Fulton if you only want to talk about 2a and 3a. In 1a you have 2 publics that killed everyone and 1 private that won after coming out of the bottom of their region.

 

I like the fact that at least you are consistent Antwan, you see that the open zoned/magnet schools have every advantage of a small private without the disadvantage of tuition. I don't think theyshould be penalized...you are going to penalize 80% of the kids in the state. It is the non-open schools that are in the vast minority.

 

You don't have to agree with my numbers on athletes...look them up for yourself. The graduation rate for public schools in Tennessee is around 70%. But that is only the number of seniors who attend at least 2 weeks of school who graduate. Doesn't count those who dropped out as Juniors or Sophomores. Not only that but you have to calculate the athletes who can't score well enough on the ACT/SAT to play. More than 90% of kids graduate from privates and virtually all go to college. Those are the facts, using a funny term like "baldymath" doesn't make them not valid. It just shows that the argument is good enough that it is easier to make light of it than answer it.

 

There are many public schools that have much better records than the privates. Some are open zoned, some are not. But if there are ANY and they are not treated like the small privates (multiplied or split) then what is the justification for doing either of those things to the privates?