DIVISION II

[smwwrest]

Valid point for last year, though MBA did not bring a number of their studs...lets go back two more years

 

2006 - 1. Brother Martin 2. MBA 3. CBHS 4. Grissom 5. MUS 6. Houston

2005 - 1. Brother Martin 2. MBA 3. Grissom 4. CBHS 5. Peachtree Ridge 6. Houston

 

Notice a trend......

 

 

For last year, you can also use a common opponent

CBHS 36 MBA 30

CBHS 55 Houston 18

[smwwrest]

Are you saying that only 9 D1 teams could compete with MBA and only 3 or 4 of those would be favored to beat MBA? A match with any other D1 team would be a blow out i.e. uncompetitive?

 

Please accept this communication as a formal invitation to bring the boys to Ooltewah High School. Let me know if you need directions. You might also expect an invitation from the Nation, Hixson, Greenville, Science Hill, and others.

 

 

No, not saying "compete" just that if I were putting together the top 10 for D1 and MBA were a participating school, I would have to give them serious consideration. After I posted, a friend called and reminded me of Ooltewah...no slight was intended. The other schools you mention are all goo, not sure how many returning wrestlers, etc. MBA had a good team last year and it appears will have as many as 8 seniors in their starting lineup. Bellett, Simpson, Floyd, Todd, Jarrell and many others...its a pretty strong lineup.

 

No skin in this game, but MBA has a good team and deserves more respect. I would favor them over all but the best few in D1, but that's just my opinion having a DII focus.

 

LOL...I like the troll comment. Actually, spoke with Maj the other day after posting, so doubt he is too offended.

 

 

No, not saying "compete" just that if I were putting together the top 10 for D1 and MBA were a participating school, I would have to give them serious consideration. After I posted, a friend called and reminded me of Ooltewah...no slight was intended. The other schools you mention are all goo, not sure how many returning wrestlers, etc. MBA had a good team last year and it appears will have as many as 8 seniors in their starting lineup. Bellett, Simpson, Floyd, Todd, Jarrell and many others...its a pretty strong lineup.

 

No skin in this game, but MBA has a good team and deserves more respect. I would favor them over all but the best few in D1, but that's just my opinion having a DII focus.

 

LOL...I like the troll comment. Actually, spoke with Maj the other day after posting, so doubt he is too offended.

 

 

are all "good", missed the "d" and it changed the meaning.

[buc_3g]

No, not saying "compete" just that if I were putting together the top 10 for D1 and MBA were a participating school, I would have to give them serious consideration. After I posted, a friend called and reminded me of Ooltewah...no slight was intended. The other schools you mention are all goo, not sure how many returning wrestlers, etc. MBA had a good team last year and it appears will have as many as 8 seniors in their starting lineup. Bellett, Simpson, Floyd, Todd, Jarrell and many others...its a pretty strong lineup.

 

No skin in this game, but MBA has a good team and deserves more respect. I would favor them over all but the best few in D1, but that's just my opinion having a DII focus.

 

LOL...I like the troll comment. Actually, spoke with Maj the other day after posting, so doubt he is too offended.

 

 

 

 

are all "good", missed the "d" and it changed the meaning.

 

East Lit beat MBA at the MBA duals last year and they have at least 10 starters returning. MBA maybe better than last year, but there are alot of D1 schools that are stronger.

[2blLeg]

East Lit beat MBA at the MBA duals last year and they have at least 10 starters returning. MBA maybe better than last year, but there are alot of D1 schools that are stronger.

 

 

can you name them?

[buc_3g]

can you name them?

 

07/08 wt

103 Ridley

119 Aguilar

125 Cuffman

130 Jones

145 Adafe

152 Hinkle

160 Gamble

189 Ferguson

215 Garrett

285 Moore

 

possibles:

112 Aguilar (103, but wrestled 112 in duals)

140 Garrett ????

[2blLeg]

07/08 wt

103 Ridley

119 Aguilar

125 Cuffman

130 Jones

145 Adafe

152 Hinkle

160 Gamble

189 Ferguson

215 Garrett

285 Moore

 

possibles:

112 Aguilar (103, but wrestled 112 in duals)

140 Garrett ????

 

 

thanks, but I was really referring to the LOT of D1 schools that are better than MBA

[shootfirst]

MBA has their chance to prove they are better than Blackman on Nov 24th @ Blackman High School.

[pattonboysdad]

MBA has their chance to prove they are better than Blackman on Nov 24th @ Blackman High School.

 

 

NICE!!! /flower.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":flower:" border="0" alt="flower.gif" />

[maj]

add blackman to the list jake's dad...we'll even drive to the hills of Ooltewah to try our hand at the mighty MBA...

 

ding...ding...ding...

 

as our fellow coach T poster says... "there is a storm a brewing"...

 

i rarely make strong statements on here because i don't like to eat crow...but the previous post about MBA is a joke...maybe "smwwrest" is one of those trolls that "maj" talks about...

 

i bet MBA folks would not put this kind of stuff on here...or would they?

 

 

LOL, smwwrest is not a troll or associated in any way with MBA, but a good guy. We have a lot of fun and some spirited discussions on the whole D-1 vs D-2 divisions in tennessee wrestling.

 

The debate and our positions as I see them.

 

D-1 has depth , hands down. I believe smwwrest has conceded the point, though he did point out at a couple of the lighter weightclasses in D-2 could be on par. If Hooker, Doster, Manley , Bauke, Simpson, Watson all ended up in the same couple of classes it would be contrued as depth. But not much argument there are guys who don't place in D-1 who would certainly be top 5 in D-2

 

Team competition, absolute best I go with Bradley, I think he likes Baylor.

Top 10 teams, I see 7 or 8 out of the top 10 being D-1 I believe smwwrest sees it along the lines of 5 for each division.

 

Top indidviduals ( who would win if the D-1 and D-2 champs wrestled ) following states- in previous years we usually ended up close, often 8-6 in favor of our respective bias. Last year I had it 9-5 D-1 and gave D-2 the benefit of most hypothetical matches I considered tossups. If I remember smwwrest had it much closer along the lines of 7-7.

 

One area I had to throw in the towel was post high school career. D-2 at the moment is walking away with it. Leen, Simpson, Marable, have placed 1,2,3 at the NCAA D-1 and have several other AA finishes. In NCAA DII , Raymond Dunning is a two time AA with a good shot at being champ this year. Manley had a solid career at Navy. I think there are some good D-1 prospects that may at least give me a little something to stand on in the near future but today D-2 is way ahead. I am looking forward to guys like Spain , Creagan, Pavolov, Sliger, Tolbert, Wright, Mang and a host of former D-1 wrestlers at some small colleges boosting the public school success in college. One of my theories is the academic rigors of some of the top prep schools better prepare the kids for for college success in the classroom and this translates to better performance on the mat.

 

Looking at other states, our split with 2 champs per weight while not perfect is really not bad. Many states have 4 or 5 classes and a few have 6. Obviously this has to water down the quality of the " state champ " title. My position is while it is generally much easier to get into the finals match in D-2 anyone who gets the title in either division is darn good and has my respect. And the debate goes on.... Good luck to all as we begin another great year of Tennessee high school wrestling.

[smwwrest]

07/08 wt

103 Ridley

119 Aguilar

125 Cuffman

130 Jones

145 Adafe

152 Hinkle

160 Gamble

189 Ferguson

215 Garrett

285 Moore

 

possibles:

112 Aguilar (103, but wrestled 112 in duals)

140 Garrett ????

 

 

I think "a lot" is overstated. You make a compelling case for ELM as they do appear to have a strong group returning. I look forward to seeing them wrestle several times this year!

[ghouse]

LOL, smwwrest is not a troll or associated in any way with MBA, but a good guy. We have a lot of fun and some spirited discussions on the whole D-1 vs D-2 divisions in tennessee wrestling.

 

The debate and our positions as I see them.

 

D-1 has depth , hands down. I believe smwwrest has conceded the point, though he did point out at a couple of the lighter weightclasses in D-2 could be on par. If Hooker, Doster, Manley , Bauke, Simpson, Watson all ended up in the same couple of classes it would be contrued as depth. But not much argument there are guys who don't place in D-1 who would certainly be top 5 in D-2

 

Team competition, absolute best I go with Bradley, I think he likes Baylor.

Top 10 teams, I see 7 or 8 out of the top 10 being D-1 I believe smwwrest sees it along the lines of 5 for each division.

 

Top individuals ( who would win if the D-1 and D-2 champs wrestled ) following states- in previous years we usually ended up close, often 8-6 in favor of our respective bias. Last year I had it 9-5 D-1 and gave D-2 the benefit of most hypothetical matches I considered tossups. If I remember smwwrest had it much closer along the lines of 7-7.

 

One area I had to throw in the towel was post high school career. D-2 at the moment is walking away with it. Leen, Simpson, Marable, have placed 1,2,3 at the NCAA D-1 and have several other AA finishes. In NCAA DII , Raymond Dunning is a two time AA with a good shot at being champ this year. Manley had a solid career at Navy. I think there are some good D-1 prospects that may at least give me a little something to stand on in the near future but today D-2 is way ahead. I am looking forward to guys like Spain , Creagan, Pavolov, Sliger, Tolbert, Wright, Mang and a host of former D-1 wrestlers at some small colleges boosting the public school success in college. One of my theories is the academic rigors of some of the top prep schools better prepare the kids for for college success in the classroom and this translates to better performance on the mat.

 

Looking at other states, our split with 2 champs per weight while not perfect is really not bad. Many states have 4 or 5 classes and a few have 6. Obviously this has to water down the quality of the " state champ " title. My position is while it is generally much easier to get into the finals match in D-2 anyone who gets the title in either division is darn good and has my respect. And the debate goes on.... Good luck to all as we begin another great year of Tennessee high school wrestling.

 

 

Maj,

 

I think you and smwwrest have hit it pretty well on the head in your discussions. As one of those guys who probably spends more time thinking about hypothetical match-ups, rankings, team strength, etc. a little more than I should I will add a little to the conversation. I have had this discussion many times and feel pretty good about where my opinions come from but they are just opinions!

 

Individuals

The edge on depth goes to DI here no doubt. I would say that if you lined up the 4th-6th place finishers in each division and let them wrestle DI comes out significantly ahead in dual format scoring. Just too much depth in DI versus DII, bigger pool of wrestlers means more good athletes.

 

When you look at the top 3 place winners things change a little. I think in the lighter weight classes in general DII comes out a little ahead but this is subjective to different years and weight classes where it won't be true. When you get to the upper weight classes DI comes out ahead more often than not. Once again I just think the bigger athlete pool helps here tremendously. Straight up dual meet is darn close with the top 3 but I think more often than not DII wins a squeaker. There will be years it goes both ways.

 

Now when you narrow it down to the state champs I see a similar trend where in general DII is better in the bottom half and DI is better in the upper half. I will state that when you look at the elite of the elite state champs (those competing on a national level and going on to college careers) that DII is really doing much better than DI. I think Maj hit part of the reasoning for that with the academic preparation. I also just think there are more schools in DII that are more tuned / better prepare for developing their kids for that opportunity.

 

So in summary of individuals:

Overall depth: DI > DII

6th-4th placers: DI > DII (you will find years and weights that go both ways)

3rd-1st placers: DI ~ DII (that means approximately!, examples go both ways)

State champs: lighter weights DII > DI

Upper weights DI > DII

Elite individuals: DII > DI

 

 

Teams

Overall depth once again goes to DI. Too many teams here and the bottom of DII really struggles.

 

If you are talking overall team rankings of DI and DII combined. I think the Top 10 would be close to an even split between DI and DII. Most people tend to really overlook the strength of some of the DII teams. Just for reference I am linking in the last coach's pool from last year. It is at the top of the link below:

 

http://www.tennwrestling.com/rankings/07-08/Week10.html

 

Now that pool shows 3 DII teams in the top 4 but the rest of the poll being rounded out by DI teams in the top 12. I am going to use a team I am close to as my example here and I hope they won't mind. However, if you look at #4 CBHS and their results from the state duals last year: they were tied by Brentwood Academy (CBHS won on criteria for 3rd), MBA wrestled them to a close lose of 36-30, and CBHS dropped a match to Father Ryan 34-25 (was decided by a one match swing). That tells me that both Brentwood and MBA were awfully darn close to CBHS last year and this was not indicated in the rankings. If CBHS was a true #4 (as voted on by a statewide group of coaches) then I have to think Brentwood Academy who tied them and MBA who gave them a good match were probably in the top 12 somewhere. This is an example of where I think some DII teams are overlooked. MBA had a hard time in the polls last year as they didn't set a full line-up on the mat until practically right at state duals. That is no excuse as this occurs to many teams as we often see many teams take losses earlier in the season that they never would otherwise.

 

I think many people tend to undervalue some of the DII teams. That is not to say that all of the DII teams can hang with the best in DI but the top tier of DII (this includes about 6 teams each year, give or take 1 for fluctuation year to year) is every bit as strong as the top in DI.

 

Now if you want to talk about the top team in each division it is clearly Baylor and Bradley Central right now. There are compelling arguments for either team and sadly they aren't going to wrestle. If I had to pick a winner right now it would be Baylor but many of you can / will chalk that up to a DII bias (and possibly rightly so).

 

So in summary on teams:

Overall depth: DI > DII

Elite teams: DII > DI (barely)

Overall Top 10 Rankings: DI ~ DII (even split in top 10)

[MWR]

LOL, smwwrest is not a troll or associated in any way with MBA, but a good guy. We have a lot of fun and some spirited discussions on the whole D-1 vs D-2 divisions in tennessee wrestling.

 

The debate and our positions as I see them.

 

D-1 has depth , hands down. I believe smwwrest has conceded the point, though he did point out at a couple of the lighter weightclasses in D-2 could be on par. If Hooker, Doster, Manley , Bauke, Simpson, Watson all ended up in the same couple of classes it would be contrued as depth. But not much argument there are guys who don't place in D-1 who would certainly be top 5 in D-2

 

Team competition, absolute best I go with Bradley, I think he likes Baylor.

Top 10 teams, I see 7 or 8 out of the top 10 being D-1 I believe smwwrest sees it along the lines of 5 for each division.

 

Top indidviduals ( who would win if the D-1 and D-2 champs wrestled ) following states- in previous years we usually ended up close, often 8-6 in favor of our respective bias. Last year I had it 9-5 D-1 and gave D-2 the benefit of most hypothetical matches I considered tossups. If I remember smwwrest had it much closer along the lines of 7-7.

 

One area I had to throw in the towel was post high school career. D-2 at the moment is walking away with it. Leen, Simpson, Marable, have placed 1,2,3 at the NCAA D-1 and have several other AA finishes. In NCAA DII , Raymond Dunning is a two time AA with a good shot at being champ this year. Manley had a solid career at Navy. I think there are some good D-1 prospects that may at least give me a little something to stand on in the near future but today D-2 is way ahead. I am looking forward to guys like Spain , Creagan, Pavolov, Sliger, Tolbert, Wright, Mang and a host of former D-1 wrestlers at some small colleges boosting the public school success in college. One of my theories is the academic rigors of some of the top prep schools better prepare the kids for for college success in the classroom and this translates to better performance on the mat.

 

Looking at other states, our split with 2 champs per weight while not perfect is really not bad. Many states have 4 or 5 classes and a few have 6. Obviously this has to water down the quality of the " state champ " title. My position is while it is generally much easier to get into the finals match in D-2 anyone who gets the title in either division is darn good and has my respect. And the debate goes on.... Good luck to all as we begin another great year of Tennessee high school wrestling.

 

 

You forgot Phillip Simpson, a NCAA finalist, and his younger brothers who all came from DII.