No privates in 1A?

[TheEgoHasLanded]

I truly wish people could understand their own ignorance, and realize that not all private school parents are rich.

 

Also, not all public school parents are middle class, some are poor, some are rich, some are cheap, some are extravagant etc. IT GOES BOTH WAYS!

 

 

The personal trainer thing is just a ridiculous post, My brother and I went to Dean Lotz personal training...who is one of the best personal trainers in the country. Right now he has a machine that costs over 75,000 dollars...can you believe that? The Miami Dolphins are the only other team, individual, or program that has this, and are being documented as we speak by swarms of doctors. Lotz has trained individuals such as Mike McKenzie (all pro packers), Jerome Woods (all pro chiefs), Penny Hardaway, Dwayne Rudd, Antowain Smith, Jimmie Snap Hunter, etc.

 

Now I can sit here and name private school and public school names, but that will do no good...the majority of kids that go to him are public school kids like Dane Bradshaw (UT committed), Rueben Mayes (UT committed), Scooter McFadgon (UT transfer) etc.

 

You guys know nothing at all about public schools, just as I know nothing at all about small rural schools...the difference is, I don't get on here and say things about how small rural schools are evil, out of date, or poor...because I DONT KNOW IF THEY ARE! BUT YOU GUYS SEEM TO KNOW IF PRIVATE SCHOOLS ARE? COME ON NOW.

[BDURHAM]

OnlineLC:

 

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I am surprised that you don't think there are inherent advantages at private schools such as CPA, but I appreciate your explanations.

 

Obviously a coach such as Satterfield, Pack, Bowers, etc. will make a difference wherever they coach. But the essence of my point is that it would be more difficult at a small rural school (and some private schools) than it would be at schools such as CPA. Pack will not be going to Cornersville, and Phil Jackson will not be going to Denver, if you get my drift.

 

My rebuttal:

 

1) Privates do compete against each other, but when a private chooses to focus on athletics/football, it has an advantage over a small rural school. A small rural school does not have the option to cross county lines and school distritcts. I think this advantage is self-evident.

 

2) There are usually two different campuses, principals, agendas, etc. -- for public rural middle and high schools. Time and resources also limit the ability of a high school coach to oversee two different programs on two different campuses. The people at a private school who hire a football coach can make certain that the middle school coach works with the high school coach. Public schools are often struggling to fill middle school positions, and the turnover is high. If we were talking about a business or company, I think you would agree that there are differences in the management and organization of the public system vs. the private system.

 

3) No, I made no assumption that all kids at a private school are wealthy and don't work in the summer. I will not continue to debate this issue, but there shouldn't be any question on either side of the debate about the financial advantages that most private school athletes have over small rural public schools or public schools in general.

 

4) You focus too much on the bus/transportation example. The advantage I was citing was more general, and included facilities and equipment.

 

5)There are different entrance requirements at private schools than there are at public schools. Furthermore, the discipline and rules are different at private schools. The way each institution deals with problems is different, and the entrance exams exclude by definition. Most private schools don't accept special ed students. Most private schools expel students for behavior that a public school must tolerate.

 

I know you believe there are advantages at a private school because you send your kid(s) to a private school. Some of the advantages don't naturally manifest themselves on a football field, but when a private school chooses to focus on football development, the advantages can make an impact, especially when matched against some public rural schools.

 

Admitting that there are advantages doesn't automatically suggest that public and private schools should not compete against each other. My position is that there are classifications for a reason, and I think removing privates from the smallest classification is an issue worth considering.

[Edited by StanTrott on 8-28-02 8:12A]

 

[BDURHAM]

I truly wish people could understand their own ignorance,

 

THEEGOHASLANDED:

 

I try to understand mine, do you? Who is saying or thinking all private school parents are rich?

 

If you were to list the average or median income of all the families at a particular private school and the same for a particular rural, public school, is there any doubt that the private school figures would be higher than a rural public school's?

[Edited by StanTrott on 8-28-02 8:24A]

[Edited by StanTrott on 8-28-02 8:26A]

 

[RealGoEagles]

So...

 

Do public schools hope they get put out of the playoffs by private schools so they at least have an excuse for not winning?

 

That's the attitude I'm getting from these posts.

[scout]

Posted by OnlineLC:

Wow a lot to respond to here and your effort certainly justifies a response.

 

Firtly with regard to your pre-amble.

 

I agree that Lighthouse would be hard to coach as it is a tiny school, however I do think someone of Dave Pack's or Coach Smiths caliber would cerainly improve their win statistics as he would in all likelihood get more kids willing to play and would teach them to play better. Let me ask a question, if Satterfield was coaching a team like Jo-Byrns, don't you expect that with time they too would become a factor in 1A. I certainly expect they would and I don't mean any disrespect to the current coach, but Satterfield would get better results because he is among the best.

 

Now to your points

 

1) CPA does draw from Williamson and Davidson counties. Most kids are within a 5-10 mile radius of the school at most as the traffic is just too bad to make anything further practical.Our student population is made up of kids who have been there from Kindergarten and for the most part are church members. Why did that give us an advantage in 2000 when all the key players had been there since Kindergarten when we did not even have a football program? I don't see why a population of 250 High School Kids coming from a church would be so much more athletically capable than a 250 population High Scool in Rural Tennessee. Occasionally we have a kid come to the school who has moved into town and can find a spot in a grade with openings, sometimes that child may also be athletic. Guess what, it goes the other way also, we have lost several kids who would have made a huge difference in football (Kevyn Murray to Franklin High is a classic example, others to MBA and BA)

 

2) Middle School Development and coaching may have an impact. Dave Pack does not coach the Middle School but he does talk a lot to the coach. Why can't the High School Coaches in rural Tennessee take the same time? Again thinking of Trousdale, I think Satterfiled may coach MS as well but am not sure.

 

3) You assume that all the kids on the team are wealthy and do not have to work in the summer. There are one or two extremely rich people at CPA, but there are also a lot of parents who make substantial sacrifices to let their kids attend. The tuition at CPA is deliberatley kept as low as humanly possibe to try and keep it affordable. One or two kids may have gone to individual training camps, but if they think they may want to play ball why wouldn't they? If you had a child who had an aptitude for academics and had a shot at an academic scholarship would you not sacrifice a little as a parent and try and make it happen by letting him take a few summer classes. What is the difference?

 

4) Facilities. Our buses are Purple and White on the outside but they aren't that different from a Yellow Bus inside. 1999 was when we built our facilty, our weight room was a joke before that, yet we were already starting to have success. I simply don't buy the fan support argument, Collinwood, Cloudland don't seem to struggle, they are no different from a Celina or Whitwell. I agree that Fan support is a huge factor in how a team plays, however the Privates have no intrinsic advantage. Parents will encourage their kids to play ball and fans will come if they all feel there is a coach that can make a difference.

 

5) All of our kids have to deal with huge distractions whether they be Public or Private. We send our kids to a Private School to improve our odds as parents so we don't have to put them in the Metro School System. I'm sure there are problems also in rural Tennessee, but guess what, even Christian Schools have to deal with these issues as well. I would be far happier sending my child to a Cloudland or Collinwood than to a Metro School. I also don;t see our Football Players being given special exceptions for travel, meals etc. This only happens if they have to travel 2 or more hours for an away game when they may be let out a little earlier. I also know this happens in Public Schools.

 

 

Posted by StanTrott:

OnlineLC:

 

I am going to use and extreme example to make a point, so please stay with me...

 

If David Pack was coaching at Lighthouse Christian or Cornersville, do you think he would have the same amount of success he has had at CPA -- given the same amount of time to develop the program? I think you may agree with me and say no.

 

Joe Paterno, Bear Bryant, Vince Lombardi, etc. were/are great coaches, but without talent and great players, they don't win. What gives CPA an advantage? I will list a few, and Panfan, please keep it all in context:

 

1) CPA draws from at least two counties and probably 5-7 different school districts. The students can all attend the school from K-12, but the drawing area is geographically larger than other 1A schools.

 

2) CPA has the advantage of developing athletes from K-12, more importantly, 6-12. Yes, public schools can also do this in theory, but most all public schools, including 1A schools have a different campus for middle/junior high. And too many public schools run a different offense/defense in high school as opposed to middle/junior high.

 

* A good private school coach once told me that a major advantage he had was teaching the same system all the way through. He said his private school had lesser athletes than the public schools he was beating, but it was the "system" they could develop that made the private school competitive. Many people, maybe you included would call this "coaching." It is easier to develop these "systems" in private schools. Ezell and CPA are good example of how these developmental systems work.

 

3) Individual coaching, training, camps, etc. are more available to private schools. Some CPA players have had a trainer who works with the Titans work with them. Not even South Pitt, Collinwood or Wayne County have these types of opportunities. Furthermore, camp opportunities are not readily available to "farm" boys who have to work during the summer.

 

4) Facilities, equipment, video teaching aids, etc. are much more available at private schools. Weights, fan support, transportation, etc. are real advantages. Fatigue and conditioning are important, and equipment, facilities and transportation make a difference. For example, a kid rides in a yellow bus from Wayne County to CPA. How does the CPA team travel to Wayne County?

 

5) A student-athlete may not be as distracted in a private school environment as he would be in a public school environment. A couple of examples: There are no problem students who might be on drugs or who have behavioral problems disrupting the routine at a private school. A private school can expel or not admit students that a public school must deal with on a day-to-day basis. Another example, a private school can make more exceptions for football teams in terms of travel time, meals, meetings, etc. than a public school can.

 

Need I continue? Can we have an honest debate if we don't admit that private schools have advantages over public schools? And yes, private schools have disadvantages as well...

 

Many private schools are relatively new institutions and are growing over time. Many public schools are institutions that are fighting to survive. Benefactors who choose to fund schools such as CPA keep the institution alive and growing. Try going to a booster meeting at some of the 1A schools CPA plays against and tell me the funding and support for athletics are equal.

 

A kid who is malnourished physically and spiritually will have more obstacles to overcome on the road to success than 95% of the kids who attend CPA. It all makes a difference, and to say there is an equal playing field is not true.

[Edited by StanTrott on 8-27-02 8:55P]

 

Online, great post! A good mark for you.

[ELA]

Panfan... you know for a fact that I have been willing to compromise on this issue. I have stated that I would support a multiplier effect as a form of compromise verses a total separation of public and private schools! Vol Gen does not like this and can't see it as a compromise, but it is for people like me and PANFAN you know it took me two years to come to this point! I have no problem with public and private schools playing each other in non-region games, I don't want to see them be forced to compete in region play or in the playoffs. I know this may never happen in this state but it is a FACT in several other states. If after the playoffs have ended and a top public and private school has been determined and they wish to play each other in a prep super bowl, so be it. This is my stance and I believe I can honestly say I speak for the masses of public school supporters and public school coaches. I have yet to meet any 1A or 2A public school football coach who likes the system the way it is now! When I speak of FACTS, that is a FACT. Maybe there is one somewhere in Tennessee, but I haven't met them yet! Respectfully, ELA

[RealGoEagles]

I see now Stan,

 

The amount of money one has is directly proportionate to the amount of football skill they have. Therefore, you must eliminate anyone who has more money.

 

Why did I not see that sooner?

 

Can I get Ronnie Carter's number. I'm going to call him and alert him to this.

 

BTW I think you'd run into a hard time proving that argument at CPA , or Friendship, or Ezell (to a lesser extent).

 

P.S. Once the split occurs, say South Pittsburgh returns to form, are you going to start a movement to oust all 1a publics from Marion Co. on the basis that they have an advantage? Or throw out the teams from Carter Co.? or Wayne, or Moore? It will be the same song different verse until these cry babies get a Blue Cross Bowl pitting their team against RBS or McEwen. Then it will be fair. ( I haven't heard conspiracy theories like these since "Low tax" Looper.)

[TheEgoHasLanded]

RealGoEagles you hit the nail right on the head.

 

A split will not get rid of the public schools who continue to dominate, it will only make them even stronger. Gordonsville, South Pitt, Collinwood, and a few others would naturally rise to the occassion...

 

I have spent time thinking about this to such an extent, that I am now willing to meet with ELA, Volgen, Panfan, Scout, RealGoEagles, Chakra, Stann, and whoever else...I know that the odds are we could not do it, but if you name the place and time...I would do anything in my power to be there, if for nothing else, to possibly put an end to this for myself.

[scout]

Whew! Lot of great posts.

 

Stan,

My H/S coach came to our "broken program" and turned a five year losing effort into a winning season in one year and state contender in two years. He coached at four schools that I know of and never had a losing season. In my opinion, coaching is the beginning and end of the question "what does it take to have winning team?" Yes, a Satterfield or Mark Medley or Smith or Pack could turn around most programs in 1a.

 

I see two different debates on this thread (and on most public/private threads). One is the economic issue. Growing up, I thought that anyone who was rich got that way in a corrupt manner. (My mom, grandmother, three aunts and mother-in-law were members of the National Education Association). I was taught that wealthy people took advantage and/or were ceded advantages of the general population. And that attitude extended to private schools (Rollred, we hated MBA). Today, I see that that attitude was an anchor around my opportunity in life. As long as I focused on everyone else's advantages, I was never going to develop any of my own advantages. I believe the same is true for "poor" athletic programs. 'Nuff said about the economics.

 

The second issue I see on this thread is that of matching the progams so that it is beneficial to as many teams, and kids, as possible. I believe this is the proper area of focus. I think everyone agrees that Lighthouse and RBS should not be competing against Cloudland and USJ. There is a group of "bottom dweller", both public and private schools, in 1a that need to be separate in some manner.

 

There is also a group of "top dwellers", public and private, in 1a. Bruceton, USJ, Collinwood, Ezell, FRA, DCA, CPA, Gordonsville, Boyd, S. Pitt., Cloudland.

 

I would submit to you that Lighthouse and RBS should compete. By the same token, I think S. Pitt. and Ezell should also compete. And Pujo, you may not agree but I think Cloudland should compete against CPA and DCA. The good programs will benefit from playing other good programs. The weak programs will be given a chance to grow.

 

But the fault line DOES NOT FALL BETWEEN PUBLIC AND PRIVATE. It makes no sense for Cloudland to be playing RBS and Monterey. Nor does it make sense for Ezell to be playing Lighthouse and Mt. Juliet Christian.

 

In my opinion, an equitalbe solution will come by focusing on the second issue and dropping the economic (class warfare) argument.

[RealGoEagles]

Great post scout. A good mark!

[OnlineLC]

StanTrott:

 

It's amazing that I now find myself in the midst of this debate as I have for the most part watched it from the sidelines over the last few months. As in all debates, there are some areas where we will agree and others where we won't.

 

Here are some of my fundamental beliefs on the topic:

 

a) Small 1A Schools (Public or Private) will always find it tough to compete in 1A Football as statistically the pool of talent is always going to work against you. The difference beween the smallest 1A and largest 1A is vast compared to the differences in smallest and largest in other classifications. Lighthouse and Red Boiling Springs are great examples of this. At the same time, these teams are willing to field a squad every year, the kids work and play hard and I trust they still enjoy themselves and get experiences that will last them a lifetime.

 

Some towns, communities, schools select to put their emphasis on other sports. This is true of both Public and Private. It is extremely tough for any school to be dominant in all sports, they usually chose their favorite. We have to remember that this discussion is mainly on the topic of Football, which for the most part is the sport we on this board care about the most. I think ELA finds himself at a Basketball Focused School, if that is the case then he does have a bit of an uphill struggle. The problem however is not with the classification, it with the interest level. Of course people are fickle and if Celina were to suddenly have a great season, I doubt that he would have a problem getting a commitment from more kids to play and to some degree his coaching job would be made easier.

 

c) I maintain that coaching is the biggest differentiator at the High School Level. It has certainly been our experience and I'm sure Ezell, Trousdale etc would all agree with me. Even when I look back to our Championship year we finally beat Trousdale by a substantial score, you could see that even in a lean year, Satterfield had those kids well disciplined and playing 110%. As someone has already pointed out on another thread, a good coach can be identified by what he gets out of the lean years rather than the years he is loaded with talent. CPA, Ezell will both have lean years and good years, in fact I believe you may start to see FRA coming into play. Likewise Collinwood is a well coached team and I believe we will see them around as a key 6-1A team for several years to come even when Jonathon Ward and Jacob Victory Graduate.

 

d) I still maintain there is no difference between a group of kids within a 5-10 mile radius of a private school vs a county radius of a Public School. Statistically why would 250 kids be so different? Just because you have players from 2 counties does not mean you have an advantage (Provided you do not recruit).

 

e) It appears to be the weak programs that have the issue. If there are some Collinwood, South Pitt, Cloudland fans etc please provide your views. From my perspective Collinwood beat a good CPA side last year then were beat by Ezell. I have not heard too many cries of fould play from them, rather I beleive I see an attitude of we need to raise the bar a little higher to go all the way. I really hope they fulfill those dreams one day and at the same time feel they have truly earned it by not being in a weaker 1A league.

 

f) You make the false assumption that Rural Public Schools feel bad when they get beat by a Private in the playoffs. Last year CPA beat Wayne County in Round 1, the following week there were many fans and players from Wayne County sitting with us at the Collinwood game cheering for us. They were there because they have a rivalry with Collinwood, obviously they were not that crushed by the defeat the previous week.

 

g) A Middle School is an important feeder to the High School System and yes they may have different campuses. If a school/coach wants to improve their squad they will work with the Middle Schools. Private Schools also have churn, the pay is not great and rememeber we are asking for a teacher to survive on a small income in a more expensive environment than in a rural community. The communication between High and Middle Schools is important, and it does require some effort and persistence when things change....success always does.

 

h) The high standard set to win a 1A Championship was set by Trousdale County and South Pittsburg, we all got pounded by them year after year and worked towards hoping to reach their level.

 

i) I have no interest in Div II, I don't like their shorter playoff structure and don't want to be driving to Memphis, Chatanooga or Knoxville every other week as part of the regular season.

 

j) I am not convinced on the facilities argument. In 1999 we had a great team, we played at Bellevue Middle School for the first part of the season and as I have said before our weight room was nothing to write home about. All of the work for that season was done in the summer before we had the nice facilities.

 

k) I am going to get mocked for this, but lets keep it in perspective here, it is only High School Football. Do we have the same passion for the academics and how our kids turn out? Most of our kids will never play NFL ball so I hope we instill something more to place their values on than how they perform on a Football Field. If we in any form set up the idea that there is one winner and everybody else is a loser, we have totally missed the vision of Varsity Athletics. Collinwood, Cloudland, Cascade, Wayne County etc should all feel very proud, they were part of a team effort and added something valuable to Tennessee High School Football. I will finish with a quote that I saw on a commercial over the last year dealing with athletic competition. "Though you are my adversary, you are not my enemy. If I should lose, I will applaud you, if I should win, I will honor you because without you, my victory has no meaning"

[TheEgoHasLanded]

good mark

 

and yes I have not heard the teams that are losing in the quarterfinals or semi finals cry foul, only the ones who aren't even at the playoffs...