THS VIKINGS 09

[compusatman]

I heard that Science Hil had no QB because their QB graduated? is this true.

 

I heard they got a tranfer. I heard a big guy maybe a lineman then I heard he was a QB. Go figure. I don't know where he came from. I would say if they had a valid QB someone would be on here chirping about it. So what about it JC people...what you got?

[crawdad]

I think Bristol will take most of the Pre-Jamboree awards. Derek Steele from DB will be serious competition for Keenan Shephard as will the Mitchell kid from Science Hill. It will be the most interesting matchup.

 

As for football speed vs. track speed I think you need look no further than #15, and #11 from '08. Not to draw attention, but they were not the most fleet footed athletes on the track...not slow...just not 100m men. But nobody could catch them on the field. Many things come into play in the definition of football speed. On a track you don't have to deal with spinning, jukeing, getting hit by a freight train, high stepping, turning on a dime or generally being made to look stupid. On the track it's a straight line...you either are fast or you are not. But on a football field you must cut, avoid, collide, run over, or hurdle somone in order to continue your sprint. Explosion out of the hole, recovery speed (as in after contact), acceleration and open field speed (flats) all come into play in defining football speed. None of these apply to track speed. But just because you are the man on the track doesn't mean you have football speed. You must posess many other tools in order to be able to use that inherent speed. No tools then no space...no space then no speed...no tools, no space, no speed = no score...no score = no win...Maybe you should stick to track.

 

If you are the man on the track, you do have football speed,however you may still not be a very good football player. That is the whole point. You are trying to re-invent your term " football speed " by including running back style and skills. Football speed is still how fast you get from point A to point B on a football field while wearing football gear. Quit trying to define it as something else.

 

Plenty of people could catch #15 they just couldn't tackle him. His skills and style were too good for them. He ran like a jack rabbit on steroids;side to side angling often looking like he wanted a collision, spinning, powering twisting and running over people. He is simply an outstanding running back with good speed, track or football.

[compusatman]

If you are the man on the track, you do have football speed,however you may still not be a very good football player. That is the whole point. You are trying to re-invent your term " football speed " by including running back style and skills. Football speed is still how fast you get from point A to point B on a football field while wearing football gear. Quit trying to define it as something else.

 

Plenty of people could catch #15 they just couldn't tackle him. His skills and style were too good for them. He ran like a jack rabbit on steroids;side to side angling often looking like he wanted a collision, spinning, powering twisting and running over people. He is simply an outstanding running back with good speed, track or football.

 

No Crawdad...you're making a simple concept complicated. Everybody understands the difference. I've heard it all through the recruiting process. It is an understood term. Now you may be right that I'm trying to re-invent it...I have a bad habit of doing that...sorry. Basically what you are saying is that if you have football speed then then you have other skills that re-define you as a football player. Skills that have nothing to do with track. And that if you have track speed then much of the equation is solved. And that maybe it's easier to be fast and learn agility than to be agile and become fast. Walter Payton is a classic example of football speed. This sounds like a debate between a Democrat and a Republican... /laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":lol:" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" /> . Where is Volman and Cap when you need them? Anyway, yes I think it to be easier to be fast and learn agility than the other way around. /blink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blink:" border="0" alt="blink.gif" />

[Geppetto]

No Crawdad...you're making a simple concept complicated. Everybody understands the difference. I've heard it all through the recruiting process. It is an understood term. Now you may be right that I'm trying to re-invent it...I have a bad habit of doing that...sorry. Basically what you are saying is that if you have football speed then then you have other skills that re-define you as a football player. Skills that have nothing to do with track. And that if you have track speed then much of the equation is solved. And that maybe it's easier to be fast and learn agility than to be agile and become fast. Walter Payton is a classic example of football speed. This sounds like a debate between a Democrat and a Republican... /laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":lol:" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" /> . Where is Volman and Cap when you need them? Anyway, yes I think it to be easier to be fast and learn agility than the other way around. /blink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blink:" border="0" alt="blink.gif" />

 

 

 

As I stated in my earlier reply...I am no expert on this subject. However, I think Comp makes a very simple and valid point. Which is, if I understand him correctly, you cannot teach a player how to run a 4.4 40 yd dash. However, a good coach can teach and improve agility through various drills. The other side of this equation is making sure you use the potential/ability properly whether it be speed, vision, heart...whatever the case may be. Obvoiusly, you would not gameplan a 4.4 guy to run up the middle all night. In addition, you would not line a 4.7 guy up at wide receiver and expect him to beat the opposition on deep routes all night. Also, if you look at percentages vs. scoring opportunities when the ball is in the hands of the 4.4 vs. the 4.7 guy, I would put my money on the 4.4 guy every time. I do think there is a need for the 4.7 guy in an effort to balance a game plan and to control the clock. And perhaps, he may break one every now and then. Crawdad...I find it amusing that you think a player can run over, spin, bully, bounce, leap tall buildings, make a call on his cell phone, and any other adjectives you can come up with, as a player finds his way to the end zone. Realistically, this happens when the talent/opposition is inferior. Which in some cases does happen in high school football. Good high school teams that have been well coached will not allow this to happen. Not many players, and I don't care what level of football it is, have the ability to make this happen. However, there have been a couple.....Bo Jackson, Earl Campbell, just a couple. Sorry crawdad, I have not seen any players around here that I would parrallel with Bo and Earl. However, I have seen some hard runners with big hearts. Without reserve, and to your point, the fastest way to get from point a to point b is in a straight line. Just a little humor....how would you know any thing about this. crawdads swim backwards.

[compusatman]

As I stated in my earlier reply...I am no expert on this subject. However, I think Comp makes a very simple and valid point. Which is, if I understand him correctly, you cannot teach a player how to run a 4.4 40 yd dash. However, a good coach can teach and improve agility through various drills. The other side of this equation is making sure you use the potential/ability properly whether it be speed, vision, heart...whatever the case may be. Obvoiusly, you would not gameplan a 4.4 guy to run up the middle all night. In addition, you would not line a 4.7 guy up at wide receiver and expect him to beat the opposition on deep routes all night. Also, if you look at percentages vs. scoring opportunities when the ball is in the hands of the 4.4 vs. the 4.7 guy, I would put my money on the 4.4 guy every time. I do think there is a need for the 4.7 guy in an effort to balance a game plan and to control the clock. And perhaps, he may break one every now and then. Crawdad...I find it amusing that you think a player can run over, spin, bully, bounce, leap tall buildings, make a call on his cell phone, and any other adjectives you can come up with, as a player finds his way to the end zone. Realistically, this happens when the talent/opposition is inferior. Which in some cases does happen in high school football. Good high school teams that have been well coached will not allow this to happen. Not many players, and I don't care what level of football it is, have the ability to make this happen. However, there have been a couple.....Bo Jackson, Earl Campbell, just a couple. Sorry crawdad, I have not seen any players around here that I would parrallel with Bo and Earl. However, I have seen some hard runners with big hearts. Without reserve, and to your point, the fastest way to get from point a to point b is in a straight line. Just a little humor....how would you know any thing about this. crawdads swim backwards.

 

Geppetto, you are right...I don't think any of us are silly enough to think that teaching speed is easier then teaching agility. But as you begin to disagree I think the core of your post actually agrees with Crawdad's point of view. I disagree with you in that you feel a 4.4 guy can't/shouldn't run up the middle. As well I disagree with you that a 4.7 guy shouldn't be a WR. And...especially all the adjectives that Crawdad used in describing Sullivan South's RB for '08 were spot on. You balk that those abilities are reserved for the likes of Earl Campbell and Barry Sanders etc.... To be quite honest, Crawdad was not exagerating. You must not have seen but one Sullivan South game in '08. Had you seen all the seasons games you would have witnessed the ability Crawdad speaks of. And actually was in anticipation of each Friday nite...to see what new and exciting display was on tap for that particular week. And you see that is the core of this debate. And that is; who would you choose as your RB? The 4.3 track guy or the 4.6 turn on a dime, break every tackle, as slick as axle grease football speed guy. Because Sullivan South had the slowest RB and the slowest WR and the slowest QB in NET. But they had something nobody else had...They had Football Speed. And see...if I'm not mistaken...Crawdad had both! /cool.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="B)" border="0" alt="cool.gif" />

[kcscoop]

Geppetto, you are right...I don't think any of us are silly enough to think that teaching speed is easier then teaching agility. But as you begin to disagree I think the core of your post actually agrees with Crawdad's point of view. I disagree with you in that you feel a 4.4 guy can't/shouldn't run up the middle. As well I disagree with you that a 4.7 guy shouldn't be a WR. And...especially all the adjectives that Crawdad used in describing Sullivan South's RB for '08 were spot on. You balk that those abilities are reserved for the likes of Earl Campbell and Barry Sanders etc.... To be quite honest, Crawdad was not exagerating. You must not have seen but one Sullivan South game in '08. Had you seen all the seasons games you would have witnessed the ability Crawdad speaks of. And actually was in anticipation of each Friday nite...to see what new and exciting display was on tap for that particular week. And you see that is the core of this debate. And that is; who would you choose as your RB? The 4.3 track guy or the 4.6 turn on a dime, break every tackle, as slick as axle grease football speed guy. Because Sullivan South had the slowest RB and the slowest WR and the slowest QB in NET. But they had something nobody else had...They had Football Speed. And see...if I'm not mistaken...Crawdad had both! /cool.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="B)" border="0" alt="cool.gif" />

 

 

 

 

That's great for high school football (which is what this forum is about), but 4.6 gets you to Charleston and 4.3 gets you to Florida. So, for me, I'll take 4.3 every day.

[compusatman]

That's great for high school football (which is what this forum is about), but 4.6 gets you to Charleston and 4.3 gets you to Florida. So, for me, I'll take 4.3 every day.

 

That is a fact. So for you parents that have a skill athlete take note because scoop has just introduced you to the brick wall. Big coaches will take big numbers any day of the week. How many Walter Peytons are there in the NFL. He had football speed but not track speed. He went to JR. College. He was not a superstar in the stereotypical notion of the word. But most of us know what his notariety was. How many college coaches will take a 4.5/4.6 WR. Kaleb Kitzmiller was a 4.6 WR and he could catch any ball within diving distance and he had football speed. He couldn't buy a college scholarship. Taylor Fletcher ran a 4.5 on a good day. Some say he was a D1 RB. LSU and Troy invited him to walk on. The fact is that at the high school level superior skill will trump speed any day of the week. At the college level...everyone has skill...and everyone has speed. The playing field is leveled. Curt says that he can't just cut and run anymore because the corners are on him like stink. Jim Phillips told me long ago, "Just be happy to have a successful high school career. Let him have fun and enjoy this time. And accept the fact that not everyone can play college football. Keenan Shephard, Chris Sensabaugh, and Mitchell don't have football speed. At least not when I saw them. But they will put up the majic number...4.4. That will get them into D1. There is currently 1 (I think) white RB in the SEC...and very few nationwide in D1. They are common in D2. There are many reasons for this but regardless of what they are it won't change anytime soon.

[RipStripScore]

That is a fact. So for you parents that have a skill athlete take note because scoop has just introduced you to the brick wall. Big coaches will take big numbers any day of the week. How many Walter Peytons are there in the NFL. He had football speed but not track speed. He went to JR. College. He was not a superstar in the stereotypical notion of the word. But most of us know what his notariety was. How many college coaches will take a 4.5/4.6 WR. Kaleb Kitzmiller was a 4.6 WR and he could catch any ball within diving distance and he had football speed. He couldn't buy a college scholarship. Taylor Fletcher ran a 4.5 on a good day. Some say he was a D1 RB. LSU and Troy invited him to walk on. The fact is that at the high school level superior skill will trump speed any day of the week. At the college level...everyone has skill...and everyone has speed. The playing field is leveled. Curt says that he can't just cut and run anymore because the corners are on him like stink. Jim Phillips told me long ago, "Just be happy to have a successful high school career. Let him have fun and enjoy this time. And accept the fact that not everyone can play college football. Keenan Shephard, Chris Sensabaugh, and Mitchell don't have football speed. At least not when I saw them. But they will put up the majic number...4.4. That will get them into D1. There is currently 1 (I think) white RB in the SEC...and very few nationwide in D1. They are common in D2. There are many reasons for this but regardless of what they are it won't change anytime soon.

 

 

 

Jared Hawkins, Vanderbilt University. He was clocked at a 4.47 out of high school (according to Scout.com's 2005 player bio). The only other tidbit I can offer, as this topic has been very deeply explored, is Team football speed is an average minus two outliers-- throw out your 4.5-6 WR/RB and your one 6.1-6.3 OT and then average the other 9 players. That average time is what makes a team "Fast" and, in my opinion with similar skill and competent coaching, more likely to win in any contest. I don't think this contradicts the points made by anyone, but if you 'zoom out' and focus on the entire field a solid 4.55 will destroy 5.5+ team (based on above formula) and will have a challenge with a 5.0ish one. Great relevant conversations guys-- this is a pleasure.

[Geppetto]

That is a fact. So for you parents that have a skill athlete take note because scoop has just introduced you to the brick wall. Big coaches will take big numbers any day of the week. How many Walter Peytons are there in the NFL. He had football speed but not track speed. He went to JR. College. He was not a superstar in the stereotypical notion of the word. But most of us know what his notariety was. How many college coaches will take a 4.5/4.6 WR. Kaleb Kitzmiller was a 4.6 WR and he could catch any ball within diving distance and he had football speed. He couldn't buy a college scholarship. Taylor Fletcher ran a 4.5 on a good day. Some say he was a D1 RB. LSU and Troy invited him to walk on. The fact is that at the high school level superior skill will trump speed any day of the week. At the college level...everyone has skill...and everyone has speed. The playing field is leveled. Curt says that he can't just cut and run anymore because the corners are on him like stink. Jim Phillips told me long ago, "Just be happy to have a successful high school career. Let him have fun and enjoy this time. And accept the fact that not everyone can play college football. Keenan Shephard, Chris Sensabaugh, and Mitchell don't have football speed. At least not when I saw them. But they will put up the majic number...4.4. That will get them into D1. There is currently 1 (I think) white RB in the SEC...and very few nationwide in D1. They are common in D2. There are many reasons for this but regardless of what they are it won't change anytime soon.

 

 

 

Good Point. However I would not call it a brick wall. I would describe it as an arena for the gifted. I think a lot kids are mislead by their parents and coaches as to their athletic abilities. These kids are built up and told by the prior stated individuals that they are great athletes beginning in pop warner football. Most of ther time they are the bigger kids that have matured quicker then the other kids. With this being the case, they get to the next levels and this process continues. No fault of the kid!! I would blame it on to program or the Jr High and High School coaches that don't know how to find their way around the "chalk board" and/or recognize talent that is standing on the sidelines or walking the school hallways. Instead, the coaches continue to bank on the quickly matured kid that has been passed, as far as athletic abilities, by the kid that was once so skinny or short and fat that he was never given an opportunity. So I think, with this being the case, there is alot of misdirected anger by the parents and coaches that can't see the forrest because the trees keep getting the way. I once wrote a paper in college that was predicated on the precentage of kid's that play HS football vs. the number of kids that received major college scholarships. Also, the percentages of kids that extended their careers from college into the NFL. After much research, i found that the percentages were absolutely rediculious. Almost impossible to get a major college schlorship and even more rediculous were the percentages to proceed to the NFL. With this being said, the kids are built up and programed to the thought processes of their parents ans/or coaches instead of their own. Many times this process extends well beyond the normal logical thought process. And the kids, several years beyond, still believe they were robbed of that should have been. They have been programmed to chase a ghost!!! There is Nothing wrong with setting goals and/or following your dreams if you will, however, dreams/goals must be realistic and sometimes readjusted thus making them attainable. So, where of when does the madness end? Realistically, as a poster put it, a 4.3 gets you to Florida to be a football player. A 4.6 gets you to Charleston to be a football player/student. Finally, I need help understanding your final sentence. A stop watch does not display emotions nor does it have vision.

[vikingT]

Good Point. However I would not call it a brick wall. I would describe it as an arena for the gifted. I think a lot kids are mislead by their parents and coaches as to their athletic abilities. These kids are built up and told by the prior stated individuals that they are great athletes beginning in pop warner football. Most of ther time they are the bigger kids that have matured quicker then the other kids. With this being the case, they get to the next levels and this process continues. No fault of the kid!! I would blame it on to program or the Jr High and High School coaches that don't know how to find their way around the "chalk board" and/or recognize talent that is standing on the sidelines or walking the school hallways. Instead, the coaches continue to bank on the quickly matured kid that has been passed, as far as athletic abilities, by the kid that was once so skinny or short and fat that he was never given an opportunity. So I think, with this being the case, there is alot of misdirected anger by the parents and coaches that can't see the forrest because the trees keep getting the way. I once wrote a paper in college that was predicated on the precentage of kid's that play HS football vs. the number of kids that received major college scholarships. Also, the percentages of kids that extended their careers from college into the NFL. After much research, i found that the percentages were absolutely rediculious. Almost impossible to get a major college schlorship and even more rediculous were the percentages to proceed to the NFL. With this being said, the kids are built up and programed to the thought processes of their parents ans/or coaches instead of their own. Many times this process extends well beyond the normal logical thought process. And the kids, several years beyond, still believe they were robbed of that should have been. They have been programmed to chase a ghost!!! There is Nothing wrong with setting goals and/or following your dreams if you will, however, dreams/goals must be realistic and sometimes readjusted thus making them attainable. So, where of when does the madness end? Realistically, as a poster put it, a 4.3 gets you to Florida to be a football player. A 4.6 gets you to Charleston to be a football player/student. Finally, I need help understanding your final sentence. A stop watch does not display emotions nor does it have vision.

 

 

I agree and disagree with some of the comments made in this thread. No one, I don't care who you are or what you think you know, can predict a scholarship or excuse away the non-offer you think you or yours deserve. Sure there are certain criteria that needs to be met and if your son doesn't meet them-he doesn't meet them. Period. Speed is crucial but so is height and weight and strength and who you know and your grades and your character and what the team needs and on and on........

I would just be thankful for an athlete to succeed and have the chance to succeed at the next level regardless of Div, 1, 2, or whatever, IF that's what they want to do. There have been many fine athletes that haven't chosen that route and could have and have turned out just fine. Life is what it is....we are who we are..... no excuses.

[kcscoop]

The bottom line today for D-1, D1AA, and even D-2 to an extent, is what your numbers are on paper. 10-15 years ago, college coaches recruited by the "numbers", but they still recruited heart and character. Not today. With the advent of the internet and recruiting services, they can find exactly what they need.

 

It is a cruel fact, but in big time college football (and even not so big time) a coach looks for the quick fix, and what an athlete's numbers are. So big and fast will sign on the dotted line, regardless of their ability. Great football players often get overlooked because they do not fit the mold.

 

Sad, but true.

[compusatman]

Geppetto, VikingT, and scoop, you are all very correct. Great posts. If you read my post you see my reference to the Sr. Phillips and his advise to me. It was tough love when he told me but the sensible parent should listen. He was very correct. Scoop, you are so right that it is a numbers game and that sometimes very high quality athletes get caught between the cracks. It happens. And DII is no discrace by any means. And if the athlete is truly DI then it will be seen. It happens every year an athlete transfers from a DII school to a DI but only after his performance is so good he just can't be ignored. It's all about the education and that is the bottom line. I agree many parents "push" their children to a scholarship when maybe they didn't have the desire or outright ability to succeed at the next level. I discovered my sons ability at his very young age and provided every opportunity I could afford to further his preparation for the next level. In the end I told him from the heart that, "if you don't want to play college football it's OK. My love and respect for you won't deminish. I am fortunate to have an extremely close relationship with my son and he knows I would support him in any venture he chooses to persue. It was his decision to attempt to play college football. And it will be his decision to see it through or decide his future is elswhere. Yes, I am a taskmaster and a staunch believer of do it right or sit down. The only reason I ever physically diciplined my children was for telling a lie. And the only demand I ever made on them in regards to their talent was to have the dicipline to finish what you start. Responsibility is a tough thing to teach but if a child learns it at an early age then success will follow them through any avenue they choose to embark.

 

As far as track speed and football speed is concerned, anyone who has been through the college recruiting process can attest to the ruthless approach by college coaches in regards to making their choice. They separate the 4.4's and better from the rest of the pack right in front of your eyes and after a couple of different visits you quickly understand what the game is about. Makes no difference who the better player is. They even go so far as to put everyone through the same drills and these drills are intense and replicate game situations and performance in these drills is by and large ignored. The numbers speak. I think we all can allude to situations where the numbers method did not work. Nevertheless, it is the method. I am sure there are DI coaches out there that see the fine print but I didn't meet them.

 

In the end the single most important issue is your childs happiness. Matt Geiger (NBA) told my daughter once, "Just make sure you have a plan "B"." Because sometimes life takes a side road.