Baylor v McCallie ending

[Wrestlingmom74]

TO reftn and TO338 you are complaining that the Baylor Coaches did not show "integrity" by not asking the Ref's to reverse the call of Unsportsmanship? This truly baffles me because I have watched numerous sports and I don’t believe I have EVER seen a coach try to change a call for the other team. This call wasn’t about the Coaches and wrestlers of the Baylor team this call was made from the Ref’s about McCallie wrestler and Coach. If you need to complain, complain about those individuals. I believe there were some terrible calls in several matches’ this past weekend but it happens. It happens every year if being a ref is so darn easy then why don’t you try it!

[ohreally15]

The baylor coach was not expected to ask the reff to chang the point call......there were bad calls by the reffs the whole match, many against baylor and just as many against mccallie. The fact of the matter is mccallie got royaly screwed in probably one of the worst calls tssaa history....baylor got third place but you have to know who actually won the wrestling portion of the match....mccallie. and there is no lesson to be learned from this....countless kids have run and hugged they're coaches after winning state with no points being deducted....also it we be awesome if we could stop referring to the act as unsportsman like...because if hugging your coach is unsportsman like then..... Finally the ruling on haveing a point deducted for running off themat before shaking hands was made for the kids that were angry and would storm off in anger and actually show unsportsmen like conduct.... this whole thing should not have happened think about if this was the finals how bad this would have been....something needs to be done about these reffs before Feb. 16.....

[oldwiseone]

If it is a rule that is enforced 100% of the time without any subjective judgement then I have no problem with the point being deducted. But, if the rule

has been selectively enforced in the past, then deducting the point was total BS. The rule, regardless is ridiculous and should be stricken from the rule book.

[TO338]

TO reftn and TO338 you are complaining that the Baylor Coaches did not show "integrity" by not asking the Ref's to reverse the call of Unsportsmanship?

 

Yes I do. That wrestler was not showing an attitude of unsportsmanship. You know it, I know it...and the Baylor coaches knew it! Therefore,

accepting an undeserved, ill-gotten win due to a horrible, unjust technicality. Imagine for a moment, how much respect Baylor would be getting on this board

if they stood up and made it right at the time? This forum would be blowing up with mad props, and I'd be leading the way!

 

But, I wasn't even referring to that one. I'm talking about the Baylor coaches taking advantage of an extremely poor call in the CBHS/Baylor 120 match in the semi's.

It appeared that even though the Baylor wrestler snapped up his headgear and headed back out to finish the match following an extremely

questionable point deduction for a phantom illegal move against the CBHS wrestler, who by the way, was up by 10 points in the 3rd period. The Baylor coaches called

their wrestler back, after which the wrestler then unsapped his headgear and returned to the middle of the mat to accept a win from an injury sustained, that all of a sudden would not allow him to finish?

It ended up being at least a 10, but in all probability a 12 point swing.

 

Much respect to Baylor's Powell for wanting to finish the match by the way!

 

It seemed there were too many highly questionable calls the entire weekend, that potentially had far too much impact on the outcomes.

And the Baylor coaches were there to take advantage of every one they could. I truly believe that to them, it's simply strategy..."a win at all cost mentality."

That's fine...just don't be surprised at the criticism later.

Edited February 5, 2013 by TO338

[olebule34]

TO338- I'm not a fan the red leggings but I think you must of had a poor angle during that 120 pound match. The CBHS wrestler had an illegal arm bar and he cranked on it. I just heard yesterday that the Baylor kid will now be getting surgery. It was the shoulder that caused him miss the entire season. By that point in the dual everyone knew the outcome anyways. It looked like they were protecting the kid. I want to know what happened to Clements between that BA and McCallie match. I was looking forward to seeing that match again.

[Sommers]

 

 

Yes I do. That wrestler was not showing an attitude of unsportsmanship. You know it, I know it...and the Baylor coaches knew it! Therefore,

accepting an undeserved, ill-gotten win due to a horrible, unjust technicality. Imagine for a moment, how much respect Baylor would be getting on this board

if they stood up and made it right at the time? This forum would be blowing up with mad props, and I'd be leading the way!

 

But, I wasn't even referring to that one. I'm talking about the Baylor coaches taking advantage of an extremely poor call in the CBHS/Baylor 120 match in the semi's.

It appeared that even though the Baylor wrestler snapped up his headgear and headed back out to finish the match following an extremely

questionable point deduction for a phantom illegal move against the CBHS wrestler, who by the way, was up by 10 points in the 3rd period. The Baylor coaches called

their wrestler back, after which the wrestler then unsapped his headgear and returned to the middle of the mat to accept a win from an injury sustained, that all of a sudden would not allow him to finish?

It ended up being at least a 10, but in all probability a 12 point swing.

 

Much respect to Baylor's Powell for wanting to finish the match by the way!

 

It seemed there were too many highly questionable calls the entire weekend, that potentially had far too much impact on the outcomes.

And the Baylor coaches were there to take advantage of every one they could. I truly believe that to them, it's simply strategy..."a win at all cost mentality."

That's fine...just don't be surprised at the criticism later.

Now, this was the one I was trying to figure out, not as much a concern over official interference (like over celebrating dings sat pm) but what is best for the wrestler,,, to keep him safe and accept a default, or find a way to snag 10 more points? Must be some serious pressure like MBO's or at least damage control.

[YOUTHCOACH16]

TO338- I'm not a fan the red leggings but I think you must of had a poor angle during that 120 pound match. The CBHS wrestler had an illegal arm bar and he cranked on it. I just heard yesterday that the Baylor kid will now be getting surgery. It was the shoulder that caused him miss the entire season. By that point in the dual everyone knew the outcome anyways. It looked like they were protecting the kid. I want to know what happened to Clements between that BA and McCallie match. I was looking forward to seeing that match again.

 

I usually dont post about our matches but I want clear the air. Powell has been injured the whole year and wrestled last week against Mccallie when he probably shouldnt have. He hasnt even practiced live since the Cleveland duals. The move against Cbhs was a completley illegal move and the right call 100% without doubt. Powells father went down to the rail and told the coaches to pull him. It had no bearing on the team score as we were pretty much out of it. The coaches contrary to popular belief on here are stand up guys and their only concern was protecting their young freshman wrestler. He did not compete the rest of the weekend even against our rival McCallie and Im not certain of his staus for the remainder of the year. Houston tweaked the injury that had been bothering him for the last few weeks against Brentwood Academy. He had to take an injury time out in that match due to this. We as fans and Houston himself were wanting to see that rematch as well but it was safer to let him sit even if that meant possibly losing to our biggest rival. As far as the call at the end at 126 lbs, I think it was a horrible call as well but I dont think the opposing team has the choice in the matter but I could be wrong. I have never in all my years of being involved in the sport seen an opposing team talk the ref into not taking points away. Heck if that was the case every team there was guilty of it this weekend because we all know there were bad calls the entire tournament. In all honesty we went to the dual with the hopes of winning it all. We came up short the first night and everything else after that was kind of anti-climatic. There is no win at all costs mentality in this program because if that was the case we would have wrestled Powell and Houston against McCallie and not inserted a jv guy in at 138 to get him a match.

[reftn]

TO reftn and TO338 you are complaining that the Baylor Coaches did not show "integrity" by not asking the Ref's to reverse the call of Unsportsmanship? This truly baffles me because I have watched numerous sports and I don’t believe I have EVER seen a coach try to change a call for the other team. This call wasn’t about the Coaches and wrestlers of the Baylor team this call was made from the Ref’s about McCallie wrestler and Coach. If you need to complain, complain about those individuals. I believe there were some terrible calls in several matches’ this past weekend but it happens. It happens every year if being a ref is so darn easy then why don’t you try it!

 

No, mom, that isnt it.

 

Who (Baylor) would try and reverse the call? By rule, it is the correct call.

 

Whats missing here is the spirit of the rule.

 

Had the call NOT been made, would the Baylor staff have a legitamate gripe?

 

 

If a kid, say, false starts. Just a little bit. Is it a false start and should it be called? As a coach, I want it called for me, I want that warning on the opposing wrestler. Its the rule. If my kid false starts, and its not called, I am not going to the table and demand you warn/penalize my kid. If a coach approaches the mat and steps on it, I can call him for unsportsmanlike conduct, and probably should. But in the heat of battle, more often than not I will attempt to "look" him back, unless its flagrantly obvious. Step on the circle its automatic. A lot goes through an officals head during the course of a match.

[Wrestlingmom74]

TO: reftn

So what your saying is if and when you wrestler does something wrong you go to the table and demand the Ref to penalize your wrestler? Is that what your saying?

[ghouse]

I usually dont post about our matches but I want clear the air. Powell has been injured the whole year and wrestled last week against Mccallie when he probably shouldnt have. He hasnt even practiced live since the Cleveland duals. The move against Cbhs was a completley illegal move and the right call 100% without doubt. Powells father went down to the rail and told the coaches to pull him. It had no bearing on the team score as we were pretty much out of it. The coaches contrary to popular belief on here are stand up guys and their only concern was protecting their young freshman wrestler. He did not compete the rest of the weekend even against our rival McCallie and Im not certain of his staus for the remainder of the year.

 

Coach,

 

I am particularly interested in your take on why this was " a completley illegal move and the right call 100% without doubt."

 

I didn't think it was an illegal move at the time... what I saw was a situation that should have been stopped for potentially dangerous but I didn't have a good angle to judge. I have now reviewed the video from mat-side (which is an excellent angle for the call) several times and am yet to understand why this position was called illegal. I firmly believe it should have been stopped as potentially dangerous before it was stopped for being illegal, which I still feel it wasn't.

 

The move being executed was a chicken wing (arm bar to some) on the left arm and a half-nelson on the right arm. This is a perfectly legal pinning combination, however it does often result, and rightfully so, in a stoppages for potentially dangerous. A chicken wing becomes illegal when the pressure is taken parallel to the long axis of the body (the spine). Many of us know this as running it towards the head / shoulder. In this situation the pressure was clearly going across the bottom wrestler thus not making the chicken wing illegal.

 

From what I can see the position was stopped due to the position of the shoulder on the right where the half was being run. Once again, I can see nothing illegal in how that was executed from the perspective of the top wrestler. Rather than turn the bottom wrestler allowed his right shoulder to go above the head and be put in a position that should have been stopped for potentially dangerous (something common in wrestling currently).

 

Based on my understanding of the rules and what I see I can see no reason why this was called illegal. I would like to hear your logic as to why you believe this was an illegal hold and the right call 100% of the time as you stated. I believe the situation was = a ref simply make the wrong call because of a lack of experience or familiarity with the rules. Furthermore to prove my point just a little, it is common that in this type of position that if the official feels the position is likely to become illegal a seasoned official will verbally alert the top man to that potential stating "keep it legal", "don't take it forward", etc. none of which was done in this situation. In my opinion simply the wrong call made by the official.

 

None of that is the fault of the Baylor staff or the wrestlers... just a sad fact we have to deal with due to the state of officiating in TN. We just don't have a strong culture for improvement or discussion amongst most of our officials and until that changes we will struggle with consistency and application of rules.

 

Now, I will go ahead and lay out something else that, in my opinion, does belong at the feet of the Baylor staff. Why was a kid who hasn't practiced live since Cleveland Duals and, by your own admission, shouldn't have been out there (I am assuming nothing materially changed in his condition since the McCallie match, when you specifically stated he shouldn't have been out there) wrestling in the state duals semi-finals? To me it sounds like the Baylor staff was willing to put him out there in an attempt to win, without regard for whether he should have been or not. That doesn't sit real well with me... our first concern should be the development of young men, not wins and losses.

 

I disagree that the Baylor staff felt that they were "pretty much out of it" at the point where they chose to have Powell take the injury default. At the time there were 4 matches left which I am willing to bet the Baylor staff felt that they had a good chance at winning at least 3 of them since they had 3 very good wrestlers left. Hindsight makes your argument seem plausible but the match results weren't available at the time and the Baylor bench and fans didn't seem to think the match was over at that point.

 

It was pretty obvious that Powell didn't want to default, much to his credit as a competitor, but I can't blame the staff (or his father based on your indication) for pulling him... they just never should have put him in that situation.

 

A similar situation occurred several years ago in the NCAA's during Steve Mocco's freshman year at Iowa (I think it was freshman year) when he was called for an illegal move (can't remember what the move was now) and his opponent from Iowa State was injured. The Iowa State staff presumably didn't feel the illegal call was warranted or at a minimum did not want it to cost Mocco the match so they had their wrestler restart the match and then default out, thus allowing Mocco to advance in the bracket. Mocco would go on to win the NCAA's that year. That was an extreme example of coaches doing what they felt was right despite a rivalry involved (and we all know the Iowa / Iowa State rivalry is big).

 

I have always held the Baylor program in high regard under its former leadership. However, I have to say based on recent events that level of respect is slipping. Hopefully Coach Nelson can prove me wrong in the future but as of right now I can't feel too good about it. That's just me being honest.

Edited February 5, 2013 by ghouse

[ghouse]

Also an interesting anecdote / funny story from this year that is somewhat germane to the discussion occurring here around team points and penalties, etc.

 

When CBHS was winning the tournament in Granite City, IL earlier this year it became obvious to many in the crowd from several teams that CBHS might win the tournament with a score of 666. As anyone who has spent time with the Book of Revelations or someone knowledgeable about pop-culture number references, there is clearly some significance to that number.

 

The CBHS staff was encouraged by many groups in the stands to do something about the score as they just didn't want that to be the final number. When their last wrestler competing lost his final match, assuring the score would not change, the CBHS coach went to the table and asked the official to deduct a team point. The official declined saying they couldn't do that without an actual rules infraction. At that point the CBHS coach chose to argue a judgement call (the pin) from the match that had just ended until he was hit for a penalty by the official.

 

The result was a standing ovation from about half of the gym and CBHS finishing with a final score 665.

Edited February 5, 2013 by ghouse

[reftn]

TO: reftn

So what your saying is if and when you wrestler does something wrong you go to the table and demand the Ref to penalize your wrestler? Is that what your saying?

 

If you were going to be consistent, yes.

 

But,

 

you (universally) take the breaks that come your way and complain when it goes the other way. Its human nature and we Americans are indoctrinated with this. (take San Fransico's last play for the win. Both Harbuaugh's were pointing their way, yes? No asked which way mom or dad were pointing though!)

 

From all accounts this was a very difficult call to digest.