Moving to Division II

[fredjones]

Franklin Grace to stay in Division I per the Tennessean

[RedRobin1]

Just curious but why does Lipscomb belong with the D2 big schools...enrollment?  I think a much better way to split the 3 classes is looking at amount of financial aid given.  Lipscomb will never be able to give what Ensworth and BA give.  I think Lipscomb being in a division with FRA, BGA, Goodpasture, and CPA is perfect and makes sense.  None of those schools will dominate over a long period of time and all should be competitive with each other.  Isn't that what everyone wants?

 

Yeah - the deciding factor has got to be enrollment - it has been the deciding factor in high school athletics since schools were first assigned to particular classes.  Based on your logic, we should put Lebanon in 2A, maybe move Watertown up a class or two this year and put Maryville in with the D2 big schools where they might not win every game every year.  The problem is that this would be a totally subjective system, and who would we look to to make those decisions?  You?  No thanks.  

 

I also differ with your opinion regarding amount of aid offered at each school.  For one thing, Ensworth and BA are a whole lot more expensive than Lipscomb, so  you would have to compare percentages rather than just gross aid dollars.  For another, you have no idea what percentage of the aid is going to athletes at any of these schools, so I don't see how an apt comparison could be made.  Finally, athletes get 100% free rides to public schools - given your logic, public schools, not privates, should be subjected to the multiplier. 

 

BTW, I hope that both BA and Ensworth continue doing what they have always done and play up in the toughest Division in Tennessee high school football.  Not sure why the BA coach is being so obstinate.  I do know that Ensworth will go with the results of a student body election, so I would be shocked if they don't play up, since that is where most of their natural rivalries lie.  

Edited October 11, 2016 by RedRobin1

[TedLNancy]

When scholarships are involved, you should throw the enrollment numbers out the window. Wake Forest has 7500 students and FSU has 41,000, yet they are in the same conference. Scholarship limits are the great equalizer there. That is one reason why the D2 large class Teams can compete at the highest levels in the state, or even the nation. The small schools have tuitions at roughly half the rate of the bigger ones and pay teachers less than public school teacher salaries.

 

Do you think the student bodies at the middle size private schools look like the student bodies at the larger D2 schools, in proportion of course? In the last 36 years, Lipscomb has had 5 kids sign D1 scholarships. Jonathan Shaun (98) at Vandy, Ethan Flatt (02) at Ole Miss, Zach (04) and Austin Rogers (08) at Tennessee and Jackson Mitchell (14) at Navy. Flatt's dad was the University president and the other 4 had parents who went to high school there. They have the Reitmaier kid this year who has committed to Oregon. That is one kid every 7 years.

Don't some TSSAA D2 schools have years where that number are signed out of a single class? I bet some of them have more kids in the NFL than Lipscomb has had in the SEC. If BA and Ensworth want the majority of their region games to have a running clock the entire 2nd half, then they should stay put. Not really sure why any coach would want that, unless they are planning to lower the goals they have for their programs.

Edited October 11, 2016 by TedLNancy

[RedRobin1]

When scholarships are involved, you should throw the enrollment numbers out the window. Wake Forest has 7500 students and FSU has 41,000, yet they are in the same conference. Scholarship limits are the great equalizer there. That is one reason why the D2 large class Teams can compete at the highest levels in the state, or even the nation. The small schools have tuitions at half of the bigger one and pay teachers less than public school teacher salaries.

 

Do you think the student bodies at the middle size private schools look like the student bodies at the larger D2 schools, in proportion of course? In the last 36 years, Lipscomb has had 5 kids sign D1 scholarships. Jonathan Shaun (98) at Vandy, Ethan Flatt (02) at Ole Miss, Zach (04) and Austin Rogers (08) at Tennessee and Jackson Mitchell (14) at Navy. Flatt's dad was the University president and the other 4 had parents who went to high school there. They have the Reitmaier kid this year who has committed to Oregon. That is one kid every 7 years.

Don't some TSSAA D2 schools have years where that number are signed out of a single class? If BA and Ensworth want the majority of their region games to have a running clock the entire 2nd half, then they should stay put. Not really sure why any coach would want that, unless they are planning to lower the goals they have for their programs.

 

You cannot legitimately compare NCAA with TSSAA for the simple reason that in the NCAA every player on both Wake Forest and FSU has been recruited and is likely on an athletic scholarship.  Both recruiting and athletic scholarships are illegal under the TSSAA rules. It really makes no difference how many kids go to a college - Notre Dame, one of the greatest football programs in the history of the NCAA, is a small school. 

 

Not sure why you are already "accusing" either BA or Ensworth of "playing down" - neither has announced that they intend to and I doubt that either will, so I think your fine whine is a waste of time.  If you really want to get your dander up, why don't you look at Knoxvile Webb, a school the size of BA and Ensworth which has been feasting on gold balls won against tiny religious-oriented schools down in Division 2A.  I haven't seen you complain about them, but I guess that's just because they weren't playing against y'all.

[TedLNancy]

I didn't realize that prefessing a scenario that has been suggested in the Tennessean with the word "if" constituted an accusation. The point I was trying to make with the NCAA example is apples to oranges, but comparing the athletes roaming the halls at the larger D2 schools to schools with similar enrollments is also apples to oranges. They are not playing the same game at the same level, no matter the enrollment size. Lipscomb hasn't had an offensive lineman sign with a D1 college since the 1970's.

By the way, I am a tea toddler, so I will have to substitute decaf iced tea for that fine "whine" you are already accusing me of doing.

Edited October 12, 2016 by TedLNancy

[TTate]

Yeah - the deciding factor has got to be enrollment - it has been the deciding factor in high school athletics since schools were first assigned to particular classes. Based on your logic, we should put Lebanon in 2A, maybe move Watertown up a class or two this year and put Maryville in with the D2 big schools where they might not win every game every year. The problem is that this would be a totally subjective system, and who would we look to to make those decisions? You? No thanks.

 

I also differ with your opinion regarding amount of aid offered at each school. For one thing, Ensworth and BA are a whole lot more expensive than Lipscomb, so you would have to compare percentages rather than just gross aid dollars. For another, you have no idea what percentage of the aid is going to athletes at any of these schools, so I don't see how an apt comparison could be made. Finally, athletes get 100% free rides to public schools - given your logic, public schools, not privates, should be subjected to the multiplier.

 

BTW, I hope that both BA and Ensworth continue doing what they have always done and play up in the toughest Division in Tennessee high school football. Not sure why the BA coach is being so obstinate. I do know that Ensworth will go with the results of a student body election, so I would be shocked if they don't play up, since that is where most of their natural rivalries lie.

That's not my logic at all...was only talking about the privates...publics are totally different and obviously classifications have to be based on enrollment...for the privates, my opinion is that amount of aid is the best way to classify. You can disagree obviously....but at least keep the conversation civil. No one is attacking you....just trying to understand why you think Lipscomb should play in the highest level of competition for football when in your words they will have their lunch handed to them....doesn't seem like much fun for the athletes. Edited October 12, 2016 by TTate

[RedRobin1]

That's not my logic at all...was only talking about the privates...publics are totally different and obviously classifications have to be based on enrollment...for the privates, my opinion is that amount of aid is the best way to classify. You can disagree obviously....but at least keep the conversation civil. No one is attacking you....just trying to understand why you think Lipscomb should play in the highest level of competition for football when in your words they will have their lunch handed to them....doesn't seem like much fun for the athletes.

 

Was not my intention to be anything other than civil - sorry if I wasn't.  The thing about competition is that most programs seem to live up or down to their competition.  In my opinion, D2 was kind of stuck in a rut until Ensworth came along and won several championships (I think 4) in a row.  Most of the other programs stepped up their game - new coaches, new facilities, new attitude.  No reason that can't or won't happen at Lipscomb; based on their history and what they bring to the table, I think they will become competitive in their division no matter who is in it.  Trying to stack the deck so that they avoid someone. anyone, is not, IMHO, the best way to go about anything in life.  I understand what you are saying, but your solution requires subjective placement of schools in the "right" class - no one (other than perhaps the school which goes home with the trophy) is ever satisfied when subjectivity is incorporated into a competitive situation.  I respect your opinion in this regard and wish it could be so, but, like communism and socialism, though it sounds good in theory, I just believe that it would not work in the real world. We  thus disagree - no offense meant.

 

Still don't understand why open-zone publics (which can accept students, who pay minimal tuition, from out-of-county) are totally different and why for them you believe that classifications must be based on enrollment.  Seems to me that they operate by the same rules as privates, except (1) the "out-of-zoners" are subsidized by the state and county and (2) the tuition is a lot less.  

Edited October 12, 2016 by RedRobin1

[TTate]

Was not my intention to be anything other than civil - sorry if I wasn't. The thing about competition is that most programs seem to live up or down to their competition. In my opinion, D2 was kind of stuck in a rut until Ensworth came along and won several championships (I think 4) in a row. Most of the other programs stepped up their game - new coaches, new facilities, new attitude. No reason that can't or won't happen at Lipscomb; based on their history and what they bring to the table, I think they will become competitive in their division no matter who is in it. Trying to stack the deck so that they avoid someone. anyone, is not, IMHO, the best way to go about anything in life. I understand what you are saying, but your solution requires subjective placement of schools in the "right" class - no one (other than perhaps the school which goes home with the trophy) is ever satisfied when subjectivity is incorporated into a competitive situation. I respect your opinion in this regard and wish it could be so, but, like communism and socialism, though it sounds good in theory, I just believe that it would not work in the real world. We thus disagree - no offense meant.

 

Still don't understand why open-zone publics (which can accept students, who pay minimal tuition, from out-of-county) are totally different and why for them you believe that classifications must be based on enrollment. Seems to me that they operate by the same rules as privates, except (1) the "out-of-zoners" are subsidized by the state and county and (2) the tuition is a lot less.

Completely agree with all points......Lipscomb will raise their level of play....no doubt. I also think Lipscomb will be forced to play at the highest level after this first 4 year period...either because of their own growth or a revision in the numbers used to split out the 3 classifications....will be beneficial to Lipscomb to sort of have a 4 year transition period to get ready to play the big boys. Appreciate your persepective!

[MountainTroll]

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/sports/preps/story/2012/oct/07/carlton-flatt-now-realizes-public-viewpoint/89799/

[orangeslice13]

I think the privates should leave the tssaa all together.

I think I'm in the minority on that though.

[Booger]

food for thought.....

 

BA & Ensworth could stay in their respective classifications (D2/AA) that the enrollment numbers have slotted them for; play the teams in the surrounding Nashville area that will be in their region (once the TSSAA sets them) and still schedule those big in state D2/AAA programs and outta state teams for their non-region games

 

the D2/AAA are gonna be doin lots of traveling....BA & Ensworth can still play those powerhouse D2/AAA teams and still maintain their dominance as the premier teams in the state....and Booger can see those D2/AAA's still scheduling them to keep their travel cost down since they r goin to b doin alot of it

 

Booger just sayin 

[TTate]

food for thought.....

 

BA & Ensworth could stay in their respective classifications (D2/AA) that the enrollment numbers have slotted them for; play the teams in the surrounding Nashville area that will be in their region (once the TSSAA sets them) and still schedule those big in state D2/AAA programs and outta state teams for their non-region games

 

the D2/AAA are gonna be doin lots of traveling....BA & Ensworth can still play those powerhouse D2/AAA teams and still maintain their dominance as the premier teams in the state....and Booger can see those D2/AAA's still scheduling them to keep their travel cost down since they r goin to b doin alot of it

 

Booger just sayin 

 

I'm not sure about that.....If Ensworth and BA stay down, you're only talking about MBA, Father Ryan and PJPII as the Nashville schools in AAA.  They don't have as much trouble getting games as BA and Ensworth, maybe MBA will play them but doubt the other two would....no reason to.