Oliver Springs

[orngnblk]

12 hours ago, rtl112 said:

Oneida has been one of the best teams in the upper east over the years.  Everybody has there ups and downs. Oneida does things with class and respect most of all.  I know they are circled  on our schedule every year.  

Agree.

[TSSAAfootball]

On 7/9/2023 at 1:24 PM, crow said:

We agree. Oz is better and could compete for the region but doubt they get by coalfield. I still think Rockwood will end up first or second in region with coalfield the other. As for Oneida, this season is a throw away IMO. 

I'm really surprised by your Rockwood pick. I can't think of a team on Oneida's schedule that lost more than them. All of their skill players and their 2 best lineman. I think they are losing like 8 starters on both sides of the ball. I am picking Oneida I think to beat them in that opening game. I reserve the right to change that pick though after the preseason scrimmages, lol. 

[crow]

3 hours ago, TSSAAfootball said:

I'm really surprised by your Rockwood pick. I can't think of a team on Oneida's schedule that lost more than them. All of their skill players and their 2 best lineman. I think they are losing like 8 starters on both sides of the ball. I am picking Oneida I think to beat them in that opening game. I reserve the right to change that pick though after the preseason scrimmages, lol. 

I understand your thoughts and you could very well be correct. I’m just basing off historically Oneida and Rockwood games are a complete toss up most years. Last year was no exception until our bunch gave up after not punching the ball in inside the Rockwood 5. After that we quit, sign of work discipline or lack there of in my mind but none the less it was a battle until then. In the past Rockwood/ Oneida games have  always been close and the better team is far from guaranteed the win regardless of which is the better team. Webb always finds a tough bunch of linemen even when they’re undersized. Again they may be last place but I’m betting they’re 1 or 2 however like you I reserve the right to alter that pick in the coming weeks. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by crow

[crow]

On 7/12/2023 at 1:31 AM, TSSAAfootball said:

The Kinderstart program was not available to any school district. You had to apply for the grant to pay for the teachers and program, otherwise you were footing the bill yourself. It was a gimmick that most good school districts wouldn't even think about using. Oneida though used it as a way to increase test scores. Their kids would be a year older, thus do better on the state tests. It worked. And you are right no child is forced to start at age 5, but 99.9% of the kids in the country start KG at age 5. Graduate at age 18. Except for Oneida. And it's not just one kid here, one kid there. It's a school district wide program. About 95% of boys and 70% of girls have stayed back a year. So that means when that MS team is playing they are playing with freshman vs 8th graders. Not 1 kid here, 1 kid there, but rather 95% of the team should be a grade above. That is an enormous advantage in MS. Hence, why Oneida MS sports are so good. And those 8th graders with beards and mustaches, they stop growing soon after. That's why I said they peak in middle school. They are good in middle school and have success because they are on "steroids". It's not because they are coached well, or workout so much, or practice so much. It's because they are a year older than everyone. And in 8th and 9th grade, that is a huge advantage. That kid therefore thinks he is just going to keep being better than the kid from York. Well the problem is that kid from York works and works and works and gets coached up. Then his hormones catch up and all of a sudden you have a stud in 11th grade. Not a stud in 8th grade who never gets better after that.

We sorta got sidetracked on this one before I got around to asking your take on something related to this. The kinderstart program was eliminated due to the state wide 3rd grade retention program. The reasoning was if a student was evaluated and decided not academically ready to start school then they would wait another year then again it happened in 3rd grade the student would be likely 20 at graduation. The 3rd grade program is a statewide program based on evaluations and testing so I believe the “advantage” has been neutralized and the “gimmick” is now policy just a couple of years later. Also Oneida typically had 2 full classes of “kinderstart” students ( those 5 year old kindergarten candidates that didn’t meet criteria or the pre-K students that didn’t) so approximately 40-45 students per year both boys and girls. I did ask someone directly connected to the program when it was still in place and they said no numbers as far as % of male or female students that were involved existed to her knowledge but her estimate would be about 70/30 boys to girls as far as class makeup and less than 50% of any single graduating class was involved (she actually estimated %40). But since every public school in the state now participates in the 3rd grade retention program I’m sure there are probably State available numbers regarding each school and their numbers if someone wants to dig them up. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by crow

[TSSAAfootball]

5 hours ago, crow said:

We sorta got sidetracked on this one before I got around to asking your take on something related to this. The kinderstart program was eliminated due to the state wide 3rd grade retention program. The reasoning was if a student was evaluated and decided not academically ready to start school then they would wait another year then again it happened in 3rd grade the student would be likely 20 at graduation. The 3rd grade program is a statewide program based on evaluations and testing so I believe the “advantage” has been neutralized and the “gimmick” is now policy just a couple of years later. Also Oneida typically had 2 full classes of “kinderstart” students ( those 5 year old kindergarten candidates that didn’t meet criteria or the pre-K students that didn’t) so approximately 40-45 students per year both boys and girls. I did ask someone directly connected to the program when it was still in place and they said no numbers as far as % of male or female students that were involved existed to her knowledge but her estimate would be about 70/30 boys to girls as far as class makeup and less than 50% of any single graduating class was involved (she actually estimated %40). But since every public school in the state now participates in the 3rd grade retention program I’m sure there are probably State available numbers regarding each school and their numbers if someone wants to dig them up. 

I guarantee the boys numbers are closer to 90%, especially for kids in sports. If you want I can get you the exact numbers for the football team. But I can tell you for the kids in the junior and senior class this year. There are 18 kids in those 2 classes. Of the kids that started school at Oneida there are only 2 kids that are in the right grade. The sophomore class is worse lol. I don’t know of any in that class that shouldn’t be juniors. Not one. Unless they transferred from the county. Which isn’t many. As far as the woman who brought the program to Oneida, I talk to her on a weekly basis. She will fully admit the program was adopted to raise test scores but instead parents used it for boys sports. That’s the truth. I’ll just tell you this. We talked about those Top 11 kids that are needed to win. I guarantee you those 11 are in the wrong grade except for 1, The quarterback. Everybody else is in the wrong grade. From the RB, 2 WRs, TE, all 5 starting OL, etc. Junior CB, Sophomore DE, etc I can go on but you get the point. 

[crow]

25 minutes ago, TSSAAfootball said:

I guarantee the boys numbers are closer to 90%, especially for kids in sports. If you want I can get you the exact numbers for the football team. But I can tell you for the kids in the junior and senior class this year. There are 18 kids in those 2 classes. Of the kids that started school at Oneida there are only 2 kids that are in the right grade. The sophomore class is worse lol. I don’t know of any in that class that shouldn’t be juniors. Not one. Unless they transferred from the county. Which isn’t many. As far as the woman who brought the program to Oneida, I talk to her on a weekly basis. She will fully admit the program was adopted to raise test scores but instead parents used it for boys sports. That’s the truth. I’ll just tell you this. We talked about those Top 11 kids that are needed to win. I guarantee you those 11 are in the wrong grade except for 1, The quarterback. Everybody else is in the wrong grade. From the RB, 2 WRs, TE, all 5 starting OL, etc. Junior CB, Sophomore DE, etc I can go on but you get the point. 

I’m not arguing that at all and the kinderstart program hasn’t been gone long enough for the students that were in it to be through the system yet. Furthermore I talked to a HS coach and he spoke at length of the headache it is trying to get a 19 year old senior to buy in. He said he’d rather have one 17 year old senior over three 19 year old seniors. His reasoning was it is extremely hard to get the 19 year old to listen. Instead they try to go their own way. That could quite possibly point to one source for the decrease in motivation and results. 
 

Now since you offered the exact numbers would be great, thanks. Of the 18 juniors and seniors you said of those that started school at Oneida only 2 were in their “correct” grade. How many of the 16 remaining did not start school at Oneida? The 90% number doesn’t hold up  there are 175-200 boys in Oneida High School, the kinderstart program was 2 classes so under 60 something students maximum possible is my understanding  that’s boys and girls. I was told that most years the combined numbers were in the 40’s. So during a 4 year period only 200 or fewer students had been involved. Regardless of the true numbers or male to female ratio that program is gone and the participants are moving through the system now. 

Lastly I’m not trying to deny the existence of the kinderstart program or its impact on students ages. My points are simply that all athletes at Oneida fall under the same guidelines as the rest of the state. I also agree that with age there are tremendous advances possible physically. I disagree with you that those benefits decrease over time into HS as you stated yet you keep bringing it up as a big advantage. I don’t disagree that it is. My point is even with that advantage the HS still isn’t getting the results so there is likely other factors at play, one of which might just be the players ages causing locker room issues. But the real point of my last post was honestly to get your thoughts on how the 3rd grade retention program will impact the sport now that all schools participate in a “kinderstart” program just in 3rd grade instead. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by crow

[TSSAAfootball]

10 hours ago, crow said:

I’m not arguing that at all and the kinderstart program hasn’t been gone long enough for the students that were in it to be through the system yet. Furthermore I talked to a HS coach and he spoke at length of the headache it is trying to get a 19 year old senior to buy in. He said he’d rather have one 17 year old senior over three 19 year old seniors. His reasoning was it is extremely hard to get the 19 year old to listen. Instead they try to go their own way. That could quite possibly point to one source for the decrease in motivation and results. 
 

Now since you offered the exact numbers would be great, thanks. Of the 18 juniors and seniors you said of those that started school at Oneida only 2 were in their “correct” grade. How many of the 16 remaining did not start school at Oneida? The 90% number doesn’t hold up  there are 175-200 boys in Oneida High School, the kinderstart program was 2 classes so under 60 something students maximum possible is my understanding  that’s boys and girls. I was told that most years the combined numbers were in the 40’s. So during a 4 year period only 200 or fewer students had been involved. Regardless of the true numbers or male to female ratio that program is gone and the participants are moving through the system now. 

Lastly I’m not trying to deny the existence of the kinderstart program or its impact on students ages. My points are simply that all athletes at Oneida fall under the same guidelines as the rest of the state. I also agree that with age there are tremendous advances possible physically. I disagree with you that those benefits decrease over time into HS as you stated yet you keep bringing it up as a big advantage. I don’t disagree that it is. My point is even with that advantage the HS still isn’t getting the results so there is likely other factors at play, one of which might just be the players ages causing locker room issues. But the real point of my last post was honestly to get your thoughts on how the 3rd grade retention program will impact the sport now that all schools participate in a “kinderstart” program just in 3rd grade instead. 

From what I’ve heard that 3rd grade retention program is a joke. Get a tutor or retake a test and you are good to go. Robbins for example had only 1 kid held back. The rest just got some tutoring. I don’t think it will have any effect. I guess we will see down the road. 
 

Edited July 18, 2023 by TSSAAfootball

[RichyRich]

On 7/17/2023 at 10:55 AM, crow said:

We sorta got sidetracked on this one before I got around to asking your take on something related to this. The kinderstart program was eliminated due to the state wide 3rd grade retention program. The reasoning was if a student was evaluated and decided not academically ready to start school then they would wait another year then again it happened in 3rd grade the student would be likely 20 at graduation. The 3rd grade program is a statewide program based on evaluations and testing so I believe the “advantage” has been neutralized and the “gimmick” is now policy just a couple of years later. Also Oneida typically had 2 full classes of “kinderstart” students ( those 5 year old kindergarten candidates that didn’t meet criteria or the pre-K students that didn’t) so approximately 40-45 students per year both boys and girls. I did ask someone directly connected to the program when it was still in place and they said no numbers as far as % of male or female students that were involved existed to her knowledge but her estimate would be about 70/30 boys to girls as far as class makeup and less than 50% of any single graduating class was involved (she actually estimated %40). But since every public school in the state now participates in the 3rd grade retention program I’m sure there are probably State available numbers regarding each school and their numbers if someone wants to dig them up. 

Why do Oneida and Scott County not have a rivalry where they are in same county, I'd say Oneida would beat them more often than not, always kinda confused me Why they never played as an outsider. Same with say Lincoln  County and Fayetteville. Cocke County and Cosby, or Elizabethton and hampton/cloudland/unaka.

Edited July 25, 2023 by RichyRich

[ChineseFlu]

2 hours ago, RichyRich said:

Why do Oneida and Scott County not have a rivalry where they are in same county, I'd say Oneida would beat them more often than not, always kinda confused me Why they never played as an outsider. Same with say Lincoln  County and Fayetteville. Cocke County and Cosby, or Elizabethton and hampton/cloudland/unaka.

They did play every year up until about 1982 or 3.  Huge gate for both teams, but Scott had beaten Oneida several times in a row and Oneida quit playing them and refuses to play them to this day.  Scott High's current coach put a 2 year contract in front of Jimmy May this past season and May wouldn't even acknowledge it

[TSSAAfootball]

1 hour ago, ChineseFlu said:

They did play every year up until about 1982 or 3.  Huge gate for both teams, but Scott had beaten Oneida several times in a row and Oneida quit playing them and refuses to play them to this day.  Scott High's current coach put a 2 year contract in front of Jimmy May this past season and May wouldn't even acknowledge it

I honestly think if they played and Scott beat them, I think Oneida is worried about the pipeline coming from the  County may dry up. Every year some of Scott’s best players decide to transfer to Oneida for high school without having to move or anything due to way schools are setup in the county. You can go to whatever high school you want regardless of where you live. The really good kids tend to want to play for Oneida in the smaller division instead of playing Alcoa or Anderson County and getting embarrassed. If they played and Oneida won, then the perception that Oneida is a better program might go away. I think that’s part of the reason Oneida will not play them. 

[crow]

On 7/25/2023 at 8:24 PM, TSSAAfootball said:

I honestly think if they played and Scott beat them, I think Oneida is worried about the pipeline coming from the  County may dry up. Every year some of Scott’s best players decide to transfer to Oneida for high school without having to move or anything due to way schools are setup in the county. You can go to whatever high school you want regardless of where you live. The really good kids tend to want to play for Oneida in the smaller division instead of playing Alcoa or Anderson County and getting embarrassed. If they played and Oneida won, then the perception that Oneida is a better program might go away. I think that’s part of the reason Oneida will not play them. 

Pipeline? Exaggerate much?Remember the “pipeline” can and does flow both ways.

Yes Oneida refuses to play and in my opinion it is that they are afraid of losing to them. In the past when Scott had a pulse it was because they were beating Oneida regularly and Oneida was done with that. Now it’s because Oneida is still afraid of losing but to a bad program. To be clear this game should happen in my opinion but it hasn’t in over 40 years and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. And as for the public contract thing that was a dog and pony show. Scott doesn’t really want to play either at the moment. They know it would likely not go their way most years. It’s a bluff right now. Don’t get me wrong they would play and they could use the money. It’s just that they know Oneida won’t play and it gives them the opportunity to “brag” about Oneida not playing them and puff their chest out. If you truly want to overcome whatever is stopping Oneida from playing you (you as in Scott) then you certainly don’t do it by a brand new suitcase coach blindsiding the HC in public with a contract. See something you may not know is I am a lifelong county school alum graduating from Scott myself and given my age and small town living I happen to have been lifelong friends with some folks who now hold quite important positions in the county education system and I can tell you with great certainty that the new coach was definitely put up to doing that. He was a puppet for anonymous players behind the scenes with agendas outside of sports. I know some of those players lol. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by crow

[crow]

On 7/25/2023 at 3:28 PM, RichyRich said:

Why do Oneida and Scott County not have a rivalry where they are in same county, I'd say Oneida would beat them more often than not, always kinda confused me Why they never played as an outsider. Same with say Lincoln  County and Fayetteville. Cocke County and Cosby, or Elizabethton and hampton/cloudland/unaka.

 

On 7/25/2023 at 6:30 PM, ChineseFlu said:

They did play every year up until about 1982 or 3.  Huge gate for both teams, but Scott had beaten Oneida several times in a row and Oneida quit playing them and refuses to play them to this day.  Scott High's current coach put a 2 year contract in front of Jimmy May this past season and May wouldn't even acknowledge it

This. As for the why well I’ve never been able to get a great answer about why they won’t play now. I know there were some serious problems in the 70’s from those games but it is not the same environment today and I do not believe it would be an off the field issue now. I personally think it is pride and ego on the Oneida side that prevents it from happening again but to try to get a straight answer from the Oneida camp has proven impossible for me so far.