Sanders and Davis who really won

[texas23]

texas23 I did not mean that I was speaking FOR him. I simply am speaking UP for him and the job he does.

 

That goes for Mr. Craft as well. He is one of the best our state has. Both of these guys take great pride in what they do. Unlike some officials, they care whether or not they do a good job.

 

Its just that the verbal attacks on them, the Franklin Coaches, and the Table Workers are getting out of hand. I am sure all the parties involved wish there had not been an issue concerning any of the matches.

 

How many of you have never made a mistake? How many of you have gone over to an Official, Table Worker, or Coach a said "hey, great job out there!" How many of you have ever been an Official, Table Worker, or Coach? People are so quick to criticize the efforts of others. Heck, if there are any of you out there that can do better, then do it!

 

Take the test and become a ref. Call Ronnie Carter and tell him that you are willing to VOLUNTEER to work a score table at the state tournament. If you have all the Coaching answers then go to your local school central office and find out what you need to do to become a coach. Then do it.

Lauderdale,

 

I never think that the right response is to tell someone how difficult it is and then tell them that if they think they can do better then go take the test and start reffing. It is not the most effective way to understand and be understood.

 

If you have the chance to read my posts on this thread, you'll see that I have said mistakes happen and it was not intentional.

 

I believe that all the refs, not just some as you have inferred, do take pride in their responsibility and integrity of their reffing "job".

 

 

I only volunteer as a fan of the sport and I do not wish to take the coach's or refs job. Replacing a volunteer with another volunteer on the table is not the answer either.

 

BTW, the only real bashing I noticed on this subject was to the Franklin coach's by another wrestling coach from Kenwood..

[LAUDERDALE]

texas23 my comments were in no way directed toward you and your posts. This whole issue is very unfortunate for all the parties involved.

 

Not all Refs put the same amount of pride and effort into calling a wrestling match as the two that were calling this one. That was the intent of my comments.

Edited February 25, 2004 by LAUDERDALE

[sundancer]

In regard to the style of wrestling used by Davis & Sanders - neither of these guys went out there and wrestled the way they normally do. There were like two young tom cats in my back yard, waiting for the other one to make the wrong move so one could attack.

 

These boys have taken every opportunity to scout the other one out, they were waiting on each other and knew exactly what to watch for. Both of them a very good wrestlers and they were waiting for the one wrong move to pounce. Heck, they were both warned for stalling at various points in the match.

 

You know come to think of it, this match was like watching paint dry until the last 20 seconds of the match and then it got so exciting I watched the events in the mat area through the next match or so after this one.

 

Edited February 26, 2004 by sundancer

[nance]

1.  3 cautions for false start = 1 point should have been awarded - end of match!

 

2.  FHS & Mont Central coaches were at score table and never left the mat area. 

 

3.  Score Keeper (student) recognized that a point should have been awarded.

 

4.  Ref would not admit he (or peers) may have made an error.  Stated the student must of made a mistake on bout sheet & disregarded the challenge by FHS Coaches.  This is the problem! 

 

Does the TSSAA really think they are better than the olympics?  Was this ref, the head ref for the tournament?  Did he consult w/ TSSAA before making his 'final' decision?  Did he really understand TSSAA rules?

 

If Carter refuses to recognize both as State Champions - FHS should file a compliant against the official & request change to rules on questioning match scores.  TSSAA rules are probably so old, most of them probably don't make sense!

 

If in doubt, buy the TSSAA tape - see for yourself!  You might even contact some FHS or Mont Central parent, they may sell you a copy of their tape cheaper.

I agree with sundancer that rbl's post is the best regarding this matter.

 

I am not a referee, a coach, nor am I a parent. I am a huge fan of high school wrestling and the young people who participate.

 

Bond Davis had mononucleosis at the state tournament. He had been cleared by his doctors to compete but one doctor told him that he was taking the risk that he might not be able to endure a full length match. Bond chose to wrestle. It was a courageous thing for him to go out there in front of that many people and not be able to do anything like his best. How would you feel if you ran a marathon and then tried to wrestle in the finals at state?

 

I have seen 90% of Bond's matches this year. It is so exciting to watch him. He must be one of the best wrestlers in the country. I was so sorry that people were not able to see him compete with his normal abilities. When you love wrestling it is a thing of beauty to watch someone who competes at this level.

 

The main problem here has to do with time. The TSSAA rule that does not allow time to appeal a decision should be changed. This rule does not serve the participants that the TSSAA was formed to serve. Time should have been taken after the match to review the tape of the match. There was plenty of question to merit a review; questions by the score keeper, the coaches and the fans. Don't these wrestlers deserve a few minutes to get it right, especially at this level?

 

The TSSAA should change the rule and give dual titles to Davis and Sanders. Why should they do anything less than what it right? This is a very important matter. This will effect Bond Davis' future.

[gitusome]

My question is why wasn't Coach Hill in the coaches chair???...Hmmm????to me he is the best coach of the county!!!

[EChason]

Franklin has 3 men on their coaching staff - J. Welder, C. Gillespie & J. Hill. They qualified 2 wrestlers for the finals. The three coaches decided who would sit mat side during each match, prior to the finals. All these guys care about are Franklin wrestlers, if you only have 2 chairs all 3 can't be there.

[BigDon]

The main problem here has to do with time. The TSSAA rule that does not allow time to appeal a decision should be changed. This rule does not serve the participants that the TSSAA was formed to serve. Time should have been taken after the match to review the tape of the match. There was plenty of question to merit a review; questions by the score keeper, the coaches and the fans. Don't these wrestlers deserve a few minutes to get it right, especially at this level?

 

The TSSAA should change the rule and give dual titles to Davis and Sanders. Why should they do anything less than what it right? This is a very important matter. This will effect Bond Davis' future.

Nance,

 

As it has already been stated on this subject, the rules for correcting an error in scoring are not TSSAA rules. They are National Federation rules adopted by the TSSAA. The rules are what they are and the TSSAA can not change them by itself. If everyone feels that it is such a great problem, then a coach needs to send a request to Mr. Carter. Then, at the next rules meeting of the National Federation, Mr. Carter can suggest a rule change or clarrification. (I wouldn't bet the farm on the rules being changed!!)

 

Several people have made suggestions to review the tape and make a decision on the score. I have a problem with this. Not that I think that if a offical make an error, that the error should not be corrected. But if we open pandora's box and allow a video review for scoring corrections, then how long will it take for someone to want to review the tape for a judgement call that was missed. Or better yet, argue for or against a stalling call made by an offical.

 

If the offical made an error, then he made an error. However, if the coaches and wrestlers left the mat area and then returned to the scorer's table to argue the score, then it is too late. End of discussion.

 

I was not there nor do I know either wrestler. I am just feeding off of the facts touted here on CoachT. If the coaches never left the table and a third caution was called, all I can say is that officals are human and subject to make mistakes. We all need to learn from this event and push each of us to be better wrestlers, coaches,officals, parents and spectators.

 

I'm now stepping down from my soapbox.

[texas23]

The main problem here has to do with time.  The TSSAA rule that does not allow time to appeal a decision should be changed.  This rule does not serve the participants that the TSSAA was formed to serve.  Time should have been taken after the match to review the tape of the match.  There was plenty of question to merit a review; questions by the score keeper, the coaches and the fans.  Don't these wrestlers deserve a few minutes to get it right, especially at this level?

 

The TSSAA should change the rule and give dual titles to Davis and Sanders.  Why should they do anything less than what it right?  This is a very important matter.  This will effect Bond Davis' future.

Nance,

 

As it has already been stated on this subject, the rules for correcting an error in scoring are not TSSAA rules. They are National Federation rules adopted by the TSSAA. The rules are what they are and the TSSAA can not change them by itself. If everyone feels that it is such a great problem, then a coach needs to send a request to Mr. Carter. Then, at the next rules meeting of the National Federation, Mr. Carter can suggest a rule change or clarrification. (I wouldn't bet the farm on the rules being changed!!)

 

Several people have made suggestions to review the tape and make a decision on the score. I have a problem with this. Not that I think that if a offical make an error, that the error should not be corrected. But if we open pandora's box and allow a video review for scoring corrections, then how long will it take for someone to want to review the tape for a judgement call that was missed. Or better yet, argue for or against a stalling call made by an offical.

 

If the offical made an error, then he made an error. However, if the coaches and wrestlers left the mat area and then returned to the scorer's table to argue the score, then it is too late. End of discussion.

 

I was not there nor do I know either wrestler. I am just feeding off of the facts touted here on CoachT. If the coaches never left the table and a third caution was called, all I can say is that officals are human and subject to make mistakes. We all need to learn from this event and push each of us to be better wrestlers, coaches,officals, parents and spectators.

 

I'm now stepping down from my soapbox.

Big Don,

 

You post is 100 percent on target. The lone thing that is left out is that the coachs did argue the point in time, the ref said they could not remember 3 cautions. That is where the end of story line comes in. Human error. Unfortunate.

[nance]

The main problem here has to do with time.  The TSSAA rule that does not allow time to appeal a decision should be changed.  This rule does not serve the participants that the TSSAA was formed to serve.  Time should have been taken after the match to review the tape of the match.  There was plenty of question to merit a review; questions by the score keeper, the coaches and the fans.  Don't these wrestlers deserve a few minutes to get it right, especially at this level?

 

The TSSAA should change the rule and give dual titles to Davis and Sanders.  Why should they do anything less than what it right?  This is a very important matter.  This will effect Bond Davis' future.

Nance,

 

As it has already been stated on this subject, the rules for correcting an error in scoring are not TSSAA rules. They are National Federation rules adopted by the TSSAA. The rules are what they are and the TSSAA can not change them by itself. If everyone feels that it is such a great problem, then a coach needs to send a request to Mr. Carter. Then, at the next rules meeting of the National Federation, Mr. Carter can suggest a rule change or clarrification. (I wouldn't bet the farm on the rules being changed!!)

 

Several people have made suggestions to review the tape and make a decision on the score. I have a problem with this. Not that I think that if a offical make an error, that the error should not be corrected. But if we open pandora's box and allow a video review for scoring corrections, then how long will it take for someone to want to review the tape for a judgement call that was missed. Or better yet, argue for or against a stalling call made by an offical.

 

If the offical made an error, then he made an error. However, if the coaches and wrestlers left the mat area and then returned to the scorer's table to argue the score, then it is too late. End of discussion.

 

I was not there nor do I know either wrestler. I am just feeding off of the facts touted here on CoachT. If the coaches never left the table and a third caution was called, all I can say is that officals are human and subject to make mistakes. We all need to learn from this event and push each of us to be better wrestlers, coaches,officals, parents and spectators.

 

I'm now stepping down from my soapbox.

If the TSSAA "adopted" these rules then they can change them. They are the governing body here with a board that has the power to do what they elect to do regarding all TSSAA matters. I am sure that Mr. Carter will be contacted by FHS in order to do what is right for its son.

 

I am not suggesting that tapes be reviewed on judgement calls (e.g. stalling). This was a FACTUAL call that could have bee easily seen on tape at our state's highest level of competition.

 

You keep missing the rule that has been stated on posts regarding this issue that the wrestler may leave the mat area if no more wrestling is necessary. The coaches did not leave and then come back to the scorer's table. They stayed in the mat area and all were in compliance with the rules during the match. It is NOT too late and it is NOT the end of discussion. As you have said, you were not there.

 

Read the rules. Franklin High School will not lay down over this. I repeat, the wrestlers at this level deserve time and consideration to obtain the CORRECT outcome.

[coachmasters]

BTW, the only real bashing I noticed on this subject was to the Franklin coach's by another wrestling coach from Kenwood..

Texas23...I am the Kenwood coach to whom you are referring. My name is Johnny Masters and I am the head coach. Now, you do not have to refer to me as "one of the Kenwood coaches." In no way did I intend to "bash" anyone. I was merely stating that if there was a 3rd caution and the Franklin coaches had gone to the table the match would have beed over. Sorry that you took my words as bashing. I will try to be more careful.

[texas23]

BTW, the only real bashing I noticed on this subject was to the Franklin coach's by another wrestling coach from Kenwood..

Texas23...I am the Kenwood coach to whom you are referring. My name is Johnny Masters and I am the head coach. Now, you do not have to refer to me as "one of the Kenwood coaches." In no way did I intend to "bash" anyone. I was merely stating that if there was a 3rd caution and the Franklin coaches had gone to the table the match would have beed over. Sorry that you took my words as bashing. I will try to be more careful.

coach Masters,

 

Actually I know who you are, I saw you at the tournament. I just do not like to use people's name on here unless they bring it up. Just out of respect for someone's privacy. When I say "bash", I mean it in the sense that you are delivering a verbal blow to a subject. I think that I characterized it correctly by the way that you expressed your opinion on what the Franklin coaches should have done or the flip side of what you would have done.

 

To re-fresh you memory I reviewed what I had thought you had written, only on this topic and brought them forward. I think using the word bash was okay, but if you believe I am unfairly characterizing your opinion, then I apologize.

 

For your ease and convenience

 

Texas23....I will say this. If I knew my kid was in a match and his opponent was hit with 3 cautions I would make sure that my kid got his point before wrestling continued. That is why coaches are at matside. To coach their wrestler and to make sure all rules are properly enforced. Take that however you want.

 

and

 

There was no coach at the table asking about cautions. That never happened. I was told that the head table realized the error and needed a ruling. Had the Franklin Coaches been on their toes they would have never let their wrestler leave the mat. Plus, Franklin should never have deferred at the beginning of the 2nd period in a 0-0 match. Then they could have chosen down in the 2nd OT. This match was lost 3 times.

 

1. Deferring at beginning of 2nd period.

 

2. Not going to the table at the time of the 3rd caution, if there was one.

 

3. Getting pinned in double overtime

 

 

Sundancer...I know what the issue is about and if the Franklin Coaches would have approached the table upon the 3rd caution (if there was one) like they are supposed to anytime the score is incorrect or a rule has been misapplied, we would not be having this discussion right now.

 

I said it before and I will say it again...If the Franklin Coaches had gone to the table when the 3rd caution happened the match would have ended and the Franklin wrestler would have won.

 

and

 

I must say that I was a little upset when I looked down and did not see Jon Hill in the corner. He is a freind of mine and is responsible for the wrestlers at Franklin being where they presently are. I believe that he was done wrong. If he had been in the corner he probably would have noticed if his wrestler deserved a point he did not get.

 

and

 

If you are going to keep challenging what I say then why are you avoiding the fact that they deferred at the beginning of the 2nd period in a 0-0 match. I guess I missed that one also. All I am saying is that you cannot lay all of the blame on the official. If there was a 3rd caution and they had approached the table at that time the score would have been corrected

 

and

 

Sundancer...They did not go to the table. I know this for sure, because if they had, Bond Davis would be a state champion. (if there was really a 3rd caution.)

Edited February 26, 2004 by texas23

[coachmasters]

OK. If bashing is just stating the facts then I was bashing.

 

To all 3 FHS coaches...I was not trying to "bash" you or your program. Please do not take it that way. I guess I was just explaining what I would have done in this situation.

 

I will no longer comment on or about this match because I do not want to "bash" anyone else.