State Champion

[legman]

What a great movie! It's one of those that I can't resist if I'm running through the channels and spot it. Just have to stop for a minute and get my Nicholson fix.

 

Just hope these guys don't order the "code red" on the coaches!

[reftn]

Leg, dela, walken (whether that was a shot at me or not, I loved the movie, but the man you quoted went to the brig in the end?)

 

I would propose to speak for no one, only myself. Most of the posts here regarding one state champion refer to the TSSAA being the great evil. I am not sure there is a great evil. If there is, it certainly isnt TSSAA.

 

MTWOA would likely welcome anyone to come to our mechanics meetings, fans, parents, especially coaches. If you pay your registration, particpate in the meetings, if you would rather not register, come and observe.

 

Would the coaches, ADs, et al allow a public viewing of their meeting? I dont think that is so much to ask.

 

Again, I would not propose to speak for anyone, but if it were put to a popular vote (among wrestling fans, wrestlers, coaches), how do you think it would go?

 

No one can make a sane argument that dividing wrestling in the state has been good for it. It makes some wrestlers appear better than they are, and some coaches appear better than they are, and some schools appear better than they are.

 

Mississippi not too long ago had divided sports division but recently reunited them. Anyone have information on that?

 

Would a coach be so kind as to post the date and time of the state meetings?

 

I didnt think so.

 

 

reftn

Edited January 24, 2005 by reftn

[cbg]

reftn,

 

That was a kind gesture on your part to invite everyone to the rules mechanics meetings that officials have to attend. How many do you think will take the you up on the offer?

[gablefan]

Reftn,

Can you truly say this? Do you really think the majority would be in your favor? True, if on a level playing field, I would love to see "One true State Champion" , but fact of the matter is, it is not on a level playing field. If it weren't the TSSAA would not have split things they way they have. For instance...Has anyone noticed that Ryan has a three-coach coaching staff Simpson, Miller, and Shone. All excellent coaches in my book, in fact they are so good they have all been HEAD coaches at other successful programs. Now take a look at Hume -Fogg who seems to be unable to hold onto a decent coach. We could further go into facilities and money and so on and so forth, but the point is clear there are advantages to some. The world is a cruel enough place from 18 years to death, lets try to make things as fair for our kids as we can, while we can.

Also if you are saying "one true champion" is that meant to be taken as every champion since 1996-97-98? is a champion with an asterisk? I certainly hope not. You mave your own opinion, please do not impose your thoughts and beliefs on us all.

[walkenvol]

(whether that was a shot at me or not, I loved the movie, but the man you quoted went to the brig in the end?)

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Was not a shot at anyone in particular, just hit me as a good example of someone who viewed his contribution to the cause (valuable as it was) as being above question by others affected by the process simply because he held a higher ranking. Anyone in the know understands that the TSSAA is not a leadership organization, but rather a majority rules governing body. If the majority of AD's want it to happen (whether it is right or wrong, moral or immoral, in the best interest of the kids or in the best interest of the sport) then the TSSAA is obligated to institute the AD's desires into action. In RC's defense, it appears that he attempts to temper some of the more radical ideas that appear. Not many AD's are willing to vote for policy that doesn't benefit them directly even if it is the right, moral action to take. My Ox is getting gored so I'm going to vote to change the rules to better favor my situation - don't really care if it places someone else at an unfair disadvantage.

[texas23]

Reftn,

    Can you truly say this? Do you really think the majority would be in your favor? True, if on a level playing field, I would love to see "One true State Champion" , but fact of the matter is, it is not on a level playing field. If it weren't the TSSAA would not have split things they way they have. For instance...Has anyone noticed that Ryan has a three-coach coaching staff Simpson, Miller, and Shone. All excellent coaches in my book, in fact they are so good they have all been HEAD coaches at other successful programs. Now take a look at Hume -Fogg who seems to be unable to hold onto a decent coach. We could further go into facilities and money and so on and so forth, but the point is clear there are advantages to some. The world is a cruel enough place from 18 years to death, lets try to make things as fair for our kids as we can, while we can.

    Also if you are saying "one true champion" is that meant to be taken as every champion since 1996-97-98? is a champion with an asterisk? I certainly hope not. You mave your own opinion, please do not impose your thoughts and beliefs on us all.

825534821[/snapback]

Hmmm.....not going to speak for reftn, but all the things you use for your case does not change the reality of one champ versus two. Even with all you points, and I feel you have made a good case, it does not change the premise of reftn post.

 

Now, if there is a majority that agree with him is a whole different issue.

 

I personally like the two division system, with the weaker one having to be called D2.

[walkenvol]

gablefan - Your point is valid, not every program has the same quality of coaching, facilities, or support. The first response to this was to split off the financial aid giving schools but did that really do anything to make it fair for Hume-Fogg? What are we going to do for the Hume-Fogg's of the world to provide equal and fair coaching and facilities along the same lines as Soddy, Clev, Bradley? Do we need to split them off to a different class also? How about a multiplier rule of some sorts? Our coach isn't much so you have to spot me 3 points for each quality coach on your staff and another 2 points for that large practice facility and a point for those new uniforms? I simply can't envision a handicaping system. Is there really any other way to deal with the inequities besides those with less will have to work harder to catch up. What good comes from the proverbial "dumbing down" strategy?

[reftn]

Gablefan,

 

Dont get your panties in a wad!

 

I didnt title this thread, only added to it. I will accept your two cents as well as anyone elses then add back my nickel!

 

Did you read my earlier post? I must have left out :

 

sniff...level the playing field, then I can win.

 

With that post you should truly change your monicker. Gable likely had gas the minute you pressed "Add Reply".

He wasnt thinking about that fact that the Russians primary goal in 72 was to defeat him, he only worked harder. That is the essence of our sport.

 

Legman has had many champions, and alot if not most would have defeated their D2 counter parts had they been allowed to compete. And some of that will cut back the other way too. I would guess their coaching staffs might equal if not surpass some of the D2 programs.

 

<pause while I get another kleenex)

 

The world can be pretty cruel in years 0-18, its all relative. Learn as you go, experience being the best teacher.

 

Simpson, Miller, and Shone didnt create Whitt Dunning. Whitt had the desire to be put in the most difficult of situations and daddy was willing to get him there. He put in the time and is getting his just rewards. I never heard Whitt complain when he was 90 pounds wrestling in the 112 pound weight class. He just wrestled.

 

I see Nick Bundy in Hendersonville defy all the odds and win the state. When did Hendersonville go private and hire Gene Mills as coach? No, Nick did it, and never mentioned how "unfair the system" is, or isnt. He just wrestled.

 

Nope. Wrestling is the sport where, in the end,you make yourself or not.

 

Walken, totally agree with you and thank you for reiterating my point regarding TSSAA. People want to make them the bully, but it just aint so.

 

And yes, I would mortgage my house to bet how the poll would come out.

 

reftn

[gablefan]

Gablefan,

 

Dont get your panties in a wad! 

 

I didnt title this thread, only added to it.  I will accept your two cents as well as anyone elses then add back my nickel!

 

Did you read my earlier post?  I must have left out :

 

sniff...level the playing field, then I can win.

 

With that post you should truly change your monicker.  Gable likely had gas the minute you pressed "Add Reply".

He wasnt thinking about that fact that the Russians primary goal in 72 was to defeat him, he only worked harder.  That is the essence of our sport.

 

Legman has had many champions, and alot if not most would have defeated their D2 counter parts had they been allowed to compete.  And some of that will cut back the other way too.  I would guess their coaching staffs might equal if not surpass some of the D2 programs.

 

<pause while I get another kleenex)

 

The world can be pretty cruel in years 0-18, its all relative.  Learn as you go, experience being the best teacher.

 

Simpson, Miller, and Shone didnt create Whitt Dunning.  Whitt had the desire to be put in the most difficult of situations and daddy was willing to get him there.  He put in the time and is getting his just rewards.  I never heard Whitt complain when he was 90 pounds wrestling in the 112 pound weight class.  He just wrestled.

 

I see Nick Bundy in Hendersonville defy all the odds and win the state.  When did Hendersonville go private and hire Gene Mills as coach?  No, Nick did it, and never mentioned how "unfair the system" is, or isnt.  He just wrestled.

 

Nope.  Wrestling is the sport where, in the end,you make yourself or not. 

 

Walken, totally agree with you and thank you for reiterating my point regarding TSSAA.  People want to make them the bully, but it just aint so.

 

And yes, I would mortgage my house to bet how the poll would come out.

 

reftn

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reftn,

I never said Simpson et al created Whit Dunning, but they helped mold him true? Hard work is the essence of our sport, I totally agree. But wait, if its just hard work than why do the US Olympis and National team's hire the best coach available? hard work does it all right? NO! They are taking adavantage of their opportunities. One would be dumb not to. But does that make it fair? Are you about equality or you about pleasing your wrestling appettite. Of course Nic would not mentiuon the unfairness of the system, because the system in place works for all now. It sounds as if you are trying to defend the TSSAA, while ripping it apart. I have my opinion and you have yours, but obviously I am not the only person seeing it this way, otherwise we would not be talking about. So while you are complaining about "one true champion" I will grab my kleenex for you.

You also failed to touch on the subject of asterisk Champions, just wanting your thoughts on that as well.

[reftn]

Gabe,

 

You make this all too easy.

 

No, no asterick. No need.

 

D1 103, D2 103 ......CHAMPION

D1 112, D2 112......CHAMPION

 

and so on.....

 

 

The primary thing any coach does, is create the atmosphere in the wrestling room.

 

You might variate how you might shoot a half a little. But all things being equal, the heart of the kid shooting that half is determined day in day out in his wrestling room.

 

I think Clarksville should give up its program. Its not fair. They are a D1 school wrestling and acting like a D2 school (according to your standards). Its just not fair.

 

Let me be prophetic for a minute. Over the next five years, the D1 power will shift from Chattanooga to Clarksville. There will be a stop over in Williamson county for a season or two.

 

In regard to TSSAA, if we must have a governing body, and we must, they do fine. In none of my posts have I been the least bit critical toward them. As Walken stated, they are not a leadership body. They serve the member schools.

 

I agree, the US Olympic committee should hire me (choke, choke)

 

Try this:

 

Dan Gable coaching a kid with no heart

 

or

 

Middle school coach, coaching a kid with all heart.

 

Remember, you cant coach heart, who wins?

 

You would be in favor of more divisions then? Certainly you would have to be for multiple individual state tournaments in order to be consistent. It isnt fair for schools of 500 enrollment to compete against schools of 1500 enrollment for individual states.

 

I hope you enjoy your minority status on this thread.

 

I think this thread should die unless you can come up with a credible post.

 

reftn

Edited January 24, 2005 by reftn

[cw160]

Thanks to legman and the rest who posted like him. These folks who cry for one classifcation for wrestling make a lot of noise on this board, but they're not the majority in the real world. How presumptuous of them to presume to speak for all wrestling fans. And there's no point in trying to present a logical argument to them. Obviously they know what's best: thanks TSSAA for trying.

[delaWarr]

you might see the path to take to further what all wrestling fans would like...ONE TRUE STATE CHAMP!

 

Pack the state meeting!

 

reftn

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reftn, I accept your statement in a post today "I would propose to speak for no one, only myself." at face value. However, "...what all wrestling fans would like...ONE TRUE STATE CHAMP!" included in your Jan 21 2005 quote printed above seems to give the distinct impression that you are saying that ALL wrestling fans share your view on the State Champ issue. Since I am a "wrestling fan" that does not share your view (and apparently there are others), you can understand that, when you use "all wrestling fans", I (and possibly others) may, however mistakenly, wonder whether you are presuming to speak for me (us).

 

Your (likely welcome) invitation to attend MTWOA meetings did not address my previous question. Based on your call to "Pack the state meeting!", to identify the "obstructionists" to ...whatever ..., would a "Pack the ... meeting" crowd who showed up at the MTWOA in the same spirit that you are advocating still "likely" be "welcome"?

 

I wouldn't bet my house on a poll or on anything else, but a big majority of the folks I have heard express opinions on the two divisions are in favor of things as they are.

 

The meetings at the state have never been in secret. I have heard them announced multiple times over the course of the tournaments.

 

reftn, I support your assessment of the TSSAA.