Ideals for new regions and state

[DAL]

I am pretty sure it is not a RIGHT that is being denied.  It is just a way in which the sport is organized.

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Oh, excuse me. I guess I should have used the word "OPPORTUNITY" intead of "RIGHT".

 

Your right. It is just the way a sport is organized.

 

OK, apples to oranges. What is the argument for splitting football into 5 classifications for Div. I? Yes, football is a team sport, but there are only 22 football players on the field at the same time, 11 from each team. Larger schools are not allowed to play more than 11 people at a time and smaller schools don't play only 8 at a time. So, again I ask why are there 5 classifications for Div. 1 Football and only 1 for wrestling?

 

Because in football, the powers that be, believe that it evens the playing field. 5A schools have a much larger talent pool to pull from than a 1A school does.

 

nashdude, to you a State Championship from Texas or Florida doesn't mean anything. To You, maybe, but to that kid it means alot. It means he was the better wrestler in that state, at his weight class, in his schools division. He is a State Champion. Noone will ever take that away from that wrestler.

 

I have been to several national tournaments. Florida and Texas has produced some very good wrestlers. I believe, and if I am wrong someone please let me know, the following wrestlers are from Florida:

Jared Frayer-3 X All-Amercian for Oklahoma Univ.

Josh Lambrecht- 3 X All-Ameican, 1 X Runner-up, for Oklahoma Univ.

and there are probably several others I do not know about.

Edited February 25, 2005 by DAL

[nashdude]

Oh, excuse me. I guess I should have used the word "OPPORTUNITY" intead of "RIGHT".

 

Your right. It is just the way a sport is organized.

 

OK, apples to oranges. What is the argument for splitting football into 5 classifications for Div. I? Yes, football is a team sport, but there are only 22 football players on the field at the same time, 11 from each team. Larger schools are not allowed to play more than 11 people at a time and smaller schools don't play only 8 at a time.  So, again I ask why are there 5 classifications for Div. 1 Football and only 1 for wrestling?

 

Because in football, the powers that be, believe that it evens the playing field. 5A schools have a much larger talent pool to pull from than a 1A school does.

 

nashdude, to you a State Championship from Texas or Florida doesn't mean anything. To You, maybe, but to that kid it means alot. It means he was the better wrestler in that state, at his weight class, in his schools division. He is a State Champion. Noone will ever take that away from that wrestler.

 

I have been to several national tournaments. Florida and Texas has produced some very good wrestlers. I believe, and if I am wrong someone please let me know, the following wrestlers are from Florida:

Jared Frayer-3 X All-Amercian for Oklahoma Univ.

Josh Lambrecht- 3 X All-Ameican, 1 X Runner-up, for Oklahoma Univ.

and there are probably several others I do not know about.

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I didn't say that a state championship from Florida or Texas was meaningless, just that it had so far less meaning than a state champ who had to beat the best to be his state's best. There are indeed some outstanding wrestling schools in FL and TX, I was just pointing out that splitting the system has a dilution effect, as there are 5 State champs per weight class in TX... Not a good idea, in my opinion. Some are paper champions. It's true that no one can take it from the kid, but again when we were growing up, titles were something earned in the heat of battle through meeting the competition head on. I'll defer the rest of my argument to agree with the coach from Virginia who clearly pointed out the detriments of a 2+ class system for individual championships.

 

About the organization comments... It's apparent we don't see eye to eye on this one, so we'll agree to disagree, as I just can't ram the football comparison through my brain because it doesn't follow simple enough logic. Perhaps it's just too complicated of a concept for me to grasp... In team sports, we are talking about talent pools because several athletes make up a team. I'm not a fan of the football class system either, just for the record, but that's neither here nor there. I think a decent way to explain my position would be to consider the following: What if the football A championship team was required to play the 5A team after they won their state title. Which team would you bet on? Sounds like a logical conclusion that we'd bet on the 5A team 9 times out of 10. Fair enough. However, when you then consider track, tennis, cross country, or wrestling, as an individual state title, it's any man's game, and all bets are off based on the size of school. You'd bet on the man, and therefore he's on his own. A school of any size can have a single class state champ regardless of its enrollment or talent pool. One kid doesn't require a great team and again competition is better for the sport. I can't see how duplicate titles has meaning. For example, we'd all likely agree that when Philip Simpson was a Junior and Senior it was highly improbable that anyone (d-1 or d-2) that could've beaten him (only an example, so if you disagree, don't argue this minor point, as I'm not bad-mouthing anyone). The guy who won the D-1 title in his weight class those years was a paper champion (not to say he wasn't a good kid or wasn't a great athlete, as I'm sure he was)but he wasn't the best, as he never beat the best. True, neither you nor I can take his title away, and we can all be happy for him, but he won his title without facing the competition head on for his title. If he'd had the opportunity to face Simpson and had one, there'd be no doubt who the better man on the mat was. In my opinion, every kid should have that opportunity, and by dividing classes, we rob the kids of that opportunity. Adding classes only hands out more titles, some will be meaningful, many will not.

[PUMMELKING]

Everybody wants to grope about splitting and other states,which I am disturbed about all the comments about Ga. wrestling. By the way Ga. has had very very good sucess at the national level with their kids. No matter on what size school you attend if you want to get beter and exel its al in your own hands.

Being from Ga. and wrestling in A classification I do know what its like to be in a small school. Does that make you any less than from being in a large school NO, it did not matter what classification we were all in the same wgt. class and they all fell like the others!!! I got better by working harder and summer wrestling, I traveled all over the state and region every weekend to a tournament any place i could find. Then on to national level events.

Do i believe adding a third class would be harmful, no way. just allow more kids the opportunity to compete and strive for an abtainable title for his team. He still will wrestle other indiv. at his wgt. so the indiv. title will be up to him not his team.

Just a reminder a great athlet also went to a small school--Herschel, oops those are bad words here in this state...lol

My thought more opportunities==more wrestlers. They may not be all of same caliber but those that wish to get better have the opportunity if they so choose to do it!!

[texas23]

Oh, excuse me. I guess I should have used the word "OPPORTUNITY" intead of "RIGHT".

 

 

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Well,,,the meaning is different. If it were a right being denied, you could take legal action to remedy the denial of it.

 

On the football analogy, I am not a fan of it, but it is not my preferred sport either. I wonder if the size of the teams, 22 needed to field a football team (if no one plays both ways, plus special teams) has anything to do with why the schools have been divided up that way.....or maybe,,,,it is like kids soccer, everybody get a trophy. (just kidding with the last comment.)

Edited February 25, 2005 by texas23

[tradewind]

OK for the person/people that believe Tennessee is a better wrestling state that IN, IL,CA...and the likes.

 

Populations (1999)

IN 5.9 million

TN 5.5 million

 

High school wrestling teams

IN 340+

TN 150+

 

State Champions

IN 1

TN 2

 

State Placers

IN 6

TN 12

 

State Qualifiers per weight class

IN 16

TN 49

 

What does it mean....well lets take one tourney and look at what 3 Indiana non-state qualifiers did.

 

Bond Davis 2X runner-up lost to a MD non-state qualifier

Jim Weakely 3x state placer lost to another non-state qualifier

John Kirn state qualifier lost

Joseph Pair 2x state placer lost to a non-state qualifier

 

One state champion has not kept Indiana from growing to 340+ wrestling teams with a similiar population size of TN. 330+ kids per weight class wrestle each year in Indiana that do not make it to state. Guess what...they don't lose those kids because they don't make it to state. Making it to state means something. In TN making it to state could mean I was the best on my team or the top 4 of 9-24 wrestlers. The state tournament format will not create nor destroy growth. Growth comes from dedicated individuals starting new programs. A change in the state tournament will not increase the number of individuals will to start a new program. It will not change the mind of a principal to allow wrestling in their school. All it will do is further dillute the prestige of the state of Tennessee when our state champions fail to place in out of state events. I ask you would you rather face an IN, TN or AL state qualifier. For those of you at Brentwood, Mater Dei, IN only had 6 state qualifiers and 1 placer. Second place Franklin, TN had 11 state qualifiers and 7 placers. Also there are no team awards at the individual state tournament in Indiana. One state championship team decided this weekend at state duals. 340+ schools one champion. Tennessee this year had 4 team champions. Indiana doesn't have to wonder who is the best. They let the wrestlers prove it on the mat. Shouldn't that be the way...prove it on the mat.

[texas23]

Everybody wants to grope about splitting and other states,which I am disturbed about all the comments about Ga. wrestling.  By the way Ga. has had very very good sucess at the national level with their kids.  No matter on what size school you attend if you want to get beter and exel its al in your own hands.

Being from Ga. and wrestling in A classification I do know what its like to be in a small school.  Does that make you any less than from being in a large school NO, it did not matter what classification we were all in the same wgt. class and they all fell like the others!!!  I got better by working harder and summer wrestling, I traveled all over the state and region every weekend to a tournament any place i could find.  Then on to national level events.

Do i believe adding a third class would be harmful, no way.  just allow more kids the opportunity to compete and strive for an abtainable title for his team.  He still will wrestle other indiv. at his wgt. so the indiv. title will be up to him not his team.

Just a reminder a great athlet also went to a small school--Herschel, oops those are bad words here in this state...lol

My thought more opportunities==more wrestlers.  They may not be all of same caliber but those that wish to get better have the opportunity if they so choose to do it!!

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why can't that happen with our current set up? Why can't those kids compete today and strive for an abtainable (attainable) title?

 

I agree with everything you posted, I just wonder about that thought.

 

Herchel was pretty good, wasn't he.

[DAL]

nashdude here is what you sad: "because a state championship from Florida or TX doesn't mean anything from the private/small school division in many cases"

 

It matters to the kid who won.

 

tradewind, wrestling people in Tennessee do not have to wonder who the is the best.

 

AAA School Dual Champions: Franklin

A/AA School Dual Champions: FRA

 

Traditional State Tournament Champions: Div I- Bradley; Div II- Baylor

 

For a list of Individual State Champions for Div. I and Div. II, go to www.tssaa.org

There it will tell you who the best wrestlers for each division are.