Time for a change

[BackinTN]

QUOTE(Bighurt @ Jun 8 2007 - 01:58 PM) 826472949[/snapback]OK, BackinTN. And this post adds what to the discussion since you have judging the value of other people's posts? /dry.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

 

 

I have only been "judging" those who have taken it upon themselves to brand me a liar, a johnny comelately, etc. I relayed some information that they didnt want to hear. That the problem exists, and there are people out there that know it and are very aware of it. Anyone who is running a clean problem should not be offended by this. They should be trying to confront and fix the problem. Not slinging mud while claiming how neat and clean it all is. Thats been the problem the entire time. Those who are involved are either denying or accusing. I made no accusations, I stated only what I have witnessed myself. I am neither denying or accussing. I am only adding information that for those who truly want to find a solution may find helpful. I believe that is fairly good addition to this post. Slapping the ignorant in the face with the stupidity of their posts is just for my own personal enjoyment.

[fan6]

QUOTE(BackinTN @ Jun 8 2007 - 11:15 AM) 826472906[/snapback]That really added to the discussion. Thanks. Thats why I didnt respond to your earlier post. It added nothing. Try to be of some consequence next time.

 

Like most, apparently you want to ignore the problem, even though its existence is rarely questioned. If you deny that the problem exists, and try to slander and intimidate those who do have information, then you get to keep doing business as usual.

 

If you are a clean run private, you should be as adamant at exposing the problem and fixing it as those who speak about against it. Open your eyes and your minds. Work toward a solution, not this mundane montra of "prove it."

 

 

. . . it’s existence is rarely questioned? You’re joking right? We are posting on a message board totally focused on the “problem”. You’ve brought nothing to this argument that others haven’t brought countless times before. The difference is (and I can’t believe I’m saying this), posters like MPHSTIGER are able to argue their points without being condescending, preachy and redundant. I may not agree with the arguments, but for the most part, I can respect the tone.

 

You rail against those of us who “slander”, but your posts have consistently been the most degrading (“ . . . Did you forget to take some medication”; “ . . . try to be of some consequence next time . . .”; “Grow up and move on . . .” and my personal favorite “ . . . It makes you think you are bigger and smarter than you are . . .”). You hop on your “Family honor” soapbox (on another thread) to defend your mother, who was in no way slandered because you think you are gaining the moral high ground. What started as a constructive thread discussing different options for the public private split has become a repetitive sermon based on your “fact based opinions”. Even when I gig you a little on your posts, you come back with another 300 word sermon which brings nothing new to the argument. All you have done is take your “personal experience”, claim it as fact and degrade those of us who imply that we’ve heard it all before.

[fan6]

QUOTE(larry @ Jun 8 2007 - 01:18 PM) 826472941[/snapback]The school he supports charges him $101,500 for 7 years, per child. He has to defend them, otherwise he would look like a complete fool. They paid their football coach $118,00 last year and their boys basketball coach $95,000. But, they don't have any advantages.

 

 

This is interesting. At first I didn’t realize that your original post was specifically addressed to me and I let it pass. Clearly though, this question intrigues you and as I go back and look at your posts on this (and other threads) it is either an obsession or at least an honest question that you want an answer to. While I understand the tone of your post, I am going to choose to ignore it and hope at some level that you are really interested. I apologize in advance for the length of this post, but I will assume that there may be others who are honestly curious as to why someone would choose a private school over public. I can’t speak for everyone, but I can tell you my reasoning.

 

My children do go to a private school which charges approximately $101,500 for a 7 year education (BA). While you might consider me a fool, I would tell you that it is a personal choice for my family that involves a lot of trade offs and sacrifice. Clearly we believe there are many advantages or we wouldn’t invest that kind of money. You may beleive a lot of things about those of us who make this choice, but do you really think we are stupid? Some of our reasons:

 

1) My kids are taught in a Christian environment where they are encouraged to pray in school, are taught bible daily, attend school wide spiritual retreats and have daily devotionals. This is not for everyone. Some don’t want that kind of teaching and others feel they get that spiritual support through church and youth groups. It is a personal choice that is right for us.

 

2) My kids are getting a great education. The student to teacher ratio is low and we believe that this type of education is better preparing our kids for college. It is not for everyone thought and I am not implying that you can’t get the same education (or in some cases a better one) in a public school. I am just saying that this is right for my kids.

 

3) My kids sign an agreement that says they won’t drink, cheat etc. while students at the school. Now clearly, signing an agreement doesn’t completely stop those activities and the same things that go on at any public school also goes on at BA. The difference is that the school actively discourages the activities, the kids make a committment not to do them, and ultimately the school has much more leverage in disciplining than a pubic would be allowed to have. Again, it may not be important to you (or at least worth the investment), but it was for us.

 

There are a lot of additional reasons (student to teacher ratio, smaller student body which means more opportunity to participate, mandatory daily physical activity, more involved parents, the ability to teach a different level of respect than the publics would be allowed to teach etc.), but I think your question gets more to the heart of why this subject is so emotional for everyone.

 

I think at the core of your question is a built in, unspoken belief that “if you choose to spend that kind of money to send your kids to a private school, you must think you are better than those of us who choose to send their kids to public school.” It’s as if by sending my kids to a private, I have insulted your choice not to do the same. While I understand that base reaction, I will tell you that it is not true. I had a great public education. Your kids may be getting a great public education. I'm sure my kids could be getting a great pubic school education. I am fortunate to be able to make this choice, but I don’t do it because I think there is anything wrong with public schools. It’s just that I believe the other advantages that a smaller private school offer are worth the investment for my kids. It is clearly not a choice that is right for everyone.

 

I respect your right to think me a fool for making this choice . . . I wish you respected my choice.

[larry]

QUOTE(fan6 @ Jun 8 2007 - 08:05 PM) 826473085[/snapback]It’s just that I believe the other advantages that a smaller private school offer are worth the investment for my kids. It is clearly not a choice that is right for everyone.

 

This is the crux of the whole argument, for me. Private school supporters usually will not admit that there is an advantage which public schools (especially the small, rural ones) can not overcome. This is why the schools must be split. Thanks for admitting as much.

[fan6]

QUOTE(larry @ Jun 8 2007 - 08:44 PM) 826473099[/snapback]This is the crux of the whole argument, for me. Private school supporters usually will not admit that there is an advantage which public schools (especially the small, rural ones) can not overcome. This is why the schools must be split. Thanks for admitting as much.

 

 

My kids aren't athletic -- the advantages that I refer to are overall educational and social advantages, not neccessarily athletic. Having said that, by nature, I think private schools do have advantages that carry over to athletics. If nothing else, they have almost 100% parental involvement (you generally invest your time where your money is) and they certainly have advantages in their ability to hire (and pay) great coaching. I also think that success will breed success. I will maintain that BA doesn't recruit (if you define recruit as actively pursuing students for athletic reasons) because they don't have to. If you have a child that you believe has special skills and possibly a future at the next level and you want them to be seen by college recruiters, you would probably at least look into a school like BA that is regularly getting attention. It works both ways. I was recenlty listening to an interview with Dane Bradshaw (former UT Basketball player) and he was ask why he didn't attend one of the private high schools in Memphis. His answer was at the time, colleges weren't giving private schools in Memphis much attention and he felt his best chance to be seen and to ultimately go to the next level was by attending a public school.

[fan6]

QUOTE(larry @ Jun 8 2007 - 08:44 PM) 826473099[/snapback]This is the crux of the whole argument, for me. Private school supporters usually will not admit that there is an advantage which public schools (especially the small, rural ones) can not overcome. This is why the schools must be split. Thanks for admitting as much.

 

 

You know, as I've thought about this, I have some other proposals for splits. If we are going to take any group that has an advantage over another and split them out we need to consider:

 

Splitting Major League Baseball by market size -- clearly large market team like the Yankee's have advantages over teams like Tampa Bay. We need 4 or 5 different divisions because I'm tired of all of the wins going to the big market teams.

 

Splitting Major college and Mid-Majors in sports like basketball -- I mean, schools like UNC and Ohio State certainly have more money to hire better coaches and have better facilities than schools like Gonzaga or Winthrop

 

We may need to split NASCAR. Results would indicate that some cars (Chevy's this year? can't remember -- I'm not a real NASCAR fan) have advantages over Toyota or Ford. We should have DI (Chevy's) DII (FORD) DIII etc.

 

Let's not stop at sports -- I think Coke may have a clear advantage over RC. We need to split the market. Coke has more resources and it's past success draws more buyers. There should be seperate places to buy each -- I mean, how can little RC compete???

 

Let's think about this . . . I'm sure there are more things we can split if we think about it . . .

[Baldcoach]

QUOTE(BackinTN @ Jun 7 2007 - 08:55 AM) 826472455[/snapback]Scholarships, financial aid, anonymous donations, generous benefactors, etc, call it whatever you want. It happens. I know, same old response; "prove it." I know what was said to me and I know what was offered. I have all the proof I need. You are rehashing the same old ground.

Grow up and move on.

 

 

Ahh...and that is logic is it? I thought I was the one who changed subjects and avoided answering. All I asked for was a few specific instances out of the hundreds that must be occurring if privates do what you said they do. Your response is that You have all the proof You need...I should grow up and move on.

 

Now who was it that accused someone else of avoiding and changing the subject? After all, as they would say in the courts, you opened the door with your allegations...it's too late to close it now. Should I just let you make unfounded allegations without asking for evidence because you are obviously the expert and completely unbiased? /blink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blink:" border="0" alt="blink.gif" />

 

Btw, you haven't answered...25 athletes that have transferred in the last year or 2 out of the hundreds in 7th - 9th that must be making the move. Or are you just grabbing numbers out of the air with no facts?

 

While you're at it you might want to check out the difference between financial aid and scholarships, and the differences between DI and DII...

 

QUOTE(larry @ Jun 8 2007 - 02:18 PM) 826472941[/snapback]The school he supports charges him $101,500 for 7 years, per child. He has to defend them, otherwise he would look like a complete fool. They paid their football coach $118,00 last year and their boys basketball coach $95,000. But, they don't have any advantages.

 

 

Larry,

 

DI or DII?

[Baldcoach]

QUOTE(larry @ Jun 8 2007 - 09:44 PM) 826473099[/snapback]This is the crux of the whole argument, for me. Private school supporters usually will not admit that there is an advantage which public schools (especially the small, rural ones) can not overcome. This is why the schools must be split. Thanks for admitting as much.

 

 

What advantage Larry...Trousdale, South Pitt, Alcoa, Smith County, Huntingdon have all overcome whatever IT is. And there are others. So what is THE advantage?

 

We don't admit it because IT doesn't exist. You guys can't even decide what IT is. Is IT better athletes..no, wait, small publics have more college level athletes. Is IT more money...no, wait, plenty of small publics have more money than the DI privates. Is IT being urban...no, wait, then we would have to say the urban publics have an advantage too. Is it selective admissions...no, wait, the DI privates mostly don't have selective admissions. Is it open zones...no, wait, many publics (actually most) allow out of zone kids to attend. Is it a combination...no, wait, that gets too many public school in there too, and we only want to throw out the privates. Better coaching...no wait...money...no, wait...more ath..no..

 

If you guys will decide what IT is, we can talk about IT. Until then, we certainly won't admit to IT...we have no clue what the heck you are talking about.

[BDURHAM]

ABSURD! You don't know what IT is?

 

Private schools by definition are selective. You

do not educate the masses. You do not have

the same limitations most public schools in your

classification have regarding funding. Your

booster group has deeper pockets than most

booster pockets in your classification. You are

dealing with an different socio-economic IT, which

no matter how much you want to sweep it under

the rug, IT is a big factor. And forget recruiting for

a moment – privates don’t have defined school zones.

 

Forget the argument that all kids are the same

everywhere -- IT is irrelevant. It is the social

issues and other factors that most public school

coaches have to deal with, which consumes much

less of the private school coaches time.

 

There are only so many hours in the day. Private

school coaches can devote more time to coaching.

 

Things that a public school coaching staff has to

deal with in greater percentages than you do:

 

* dealing with special education.

* dealing with keeping kids academically eligible.

* dealing with keeping kids out of jail.

* dealing with kids who do not live with their parents.

* dealing with lack of funds to purchase essentials such as cleats,

spirit packs, helmets, etc.

* dealing with field maintenance -- not having exclusive game and practice fields.

* dealing with lack of support for hiring assistant coaches.

* dealing with the kids that are within their zone -- cannot accept kids

outside of county and state.

 

Can you find a couple of ITs in that list? If you don’t get IT, you never

will.

 

QUOTE(Baldcoach @ Jun 8 2007 - 10:56 PM) 826473162[/snapback]What advantage Larry...Trousdale, South Pitt, Alcoa, Smith County, Huntingdon have all overcome whatever IT is. And there are others. So what is THE advantage?

 

We don't admit it because IT doesn't exist. You guys can't even decide what IT is. Is IT better athletes..no, wait, small publics have more college level athletes. Is IT more money...no, wait, plenty of small publics have more money than the DI privates. Is IT being urban...no, wait, then we would have to say the urban publics have an advantage too. Is it selective admissions...no, wait, the DI privates mostly don't have selective admissions. Is it open zones...no, wait, many publics (actually most) allow out of zone kids to attend. Is it a combination...no, wait, that gets too many public school in there too, and we only want to throw out the privates. Better coaching...no wait...money...no, wait...more ath..no..

 

If you guys will decide what IT is, we can talk about IT. Until then, we certainly won't admit to IT...we have no clue what the heck you are talking about.

[Baldcoach]

QUOTE(StanTrott @ Jun 9 2007 - 08:56 AM) 826473202[/snapback]ABSURD! You don't know what IT is?

 

Private schools by definition are selective. You

do not educate the masses. You do not have

the same limitations most public schools in your

classification have regarding funding. Your

booster group has deeper pockets than most

booster pockets in your classification. You are

dealing with an different socio-economic IT, which

no matter how much you want to sweep it under

the rug, IT is a big factor. And forget recruiting for

a moment – privates don’t have defined school zones.

 

Forget the argument that all kids are the same

everywhere -- IT is irrelevant. It is the social

issues and other factors that most public school

coaches have to deal with, which consumes much

less of the private school coaches time.

 

There are only so many hours in the day. Private

school coaches can devote more time to coaching.

 

Things that a public school coaching staff has to

deal with in greater percentages than you do:

 

* dealing with special education.

* dealing with keeping kids academically eligible.

* dealing with keeping kids out of jail.

* dealing with kids who do not live with their parents.

* dealing with lack of funds to purchase essentials such as cleats,

spirit packs, helmets, etc.

* dealing with field maintenance -- not having exclusive game and practice fields.

* dealing with lack of support for hiring assistant coaches.

* dealing with the kids that are within their zone -- cannot accept kids

outside of county and state.

 

Can you find a couple of ITs in that list? If you don’t get IT, you never

will.

 

 

I can find several, all of which I will happily reply to, and all of which I have replied to in the past. But it seems that we have to keep reminding about things, so here goes...

 

 

Private schools by definition are selective. You

do not educate the masses. You do not have

the same limitations most public schools in your

classification have regarding funding. Your

booster group has deeper pockets than most

booster pockets in your classification. You are

dealing with an different socio-economic IT, which

no matter how much you want to sweep it under

the rug, IT is a big factor. And forget recruiting for

a moment – privates don’t have defined school zones.

 

Forget the argument that all kids are the same

everywhere -- IT is irrelevant. It is the social

issues and other factors that most public school

coaches have to deal with, which consumes much

less of the private school coaches time.

 

There are only so many hours in the day. Private

school coaches can devote more time to coaching.

 

Things that a public school coaching staff has to

deal with in greater percentages than you do:

 

* dealing with special education.

 

Huh? Are you saying that the small privates have no special ed kids? If so you are sadly mistaken. We employ 2 special needs teachers. I keep telling you the small religious privates are NOT the same as the elite privates. And by definition if a special ed kid is good enough to play they must be a great athlete...this is a non issue either way.

 

* dealing with keeping kids academically eligible.

 

You're joking, right? As if we don't constantly deal with this issue too? In fact, not only do we have to abide by the TSSAA rules but we have internal standards that are much more rigid. Our kids become academically ineligible for 1 F or 2 D's...no athletic activity until they bring the grades up. So we are often short several kids who could otherwise play.

 

* dealing with keeping kids out of jail.

 

Stan, we all deal with kids. NO coach deals with felons...they go to alternative schools. Kids do stupid stuff, most of us just try to keep them alive. I am thinking not many coaches public or private spend a lot of time keeping their kids out of jail. You are really reaching to define this as IT.

 

* dealing with kids who do not live with their parents.

 

You're joking again, right? We all deal with broken homes...how does that become an insurmountable advantage to anyone? In your definition of dealing are you implying 'solving'? If not, then how is this an advantage/disadvantage?

 

NOW THINGS GET REALLY GOOD!

 

* dealing with lack of funds to purchase essentials such as cleats,

spirit packs, helmets, etc.

 

LOL! We don't have ANY funds to purchase those things(except our reconditioned helmets)...you are upset because you have to scrape the money together to get them. We have to have the kids pay for them. I've said it before and I have given the numbers. The Football budgets of the small privates are SMALLER than those of the small publics with the exceptions of a few poor counties. Our Football budget last year was 5k...for 60 kids...lol

 

 

* dealing with field maintenance -- not having exclusive game and practice fields.

 

EVEN BETTER! What the heck is an exclusive game field? I don't know. Our field is used by middle school Football, Varsity and JV Football, Middle school soccer, Varsity and JV soccer, Middle school girl's soccer, and Varsity and JV girl's Soccer. We have a 'practice field' behind the bleacher...it is used by the ducks and geese as much as us as it is a swamp. If it has water on it we share the Baseball outfield with the middleschool teams or the far field with the soccer teams. I think you just helped my argument with this one...thanks!

 

* dealing with lack of support for hiring assistant coaches.

 

WHat?? HUH? How many assistant coaches do you think we hire? Answer:NONE. We hire to fill teaching positions and hope that some of them can coach. We don't get to look around in the middle and elementary schools in the whole county to see if anyone has been hired who is a good coach and then use them. You're killing me with laughter!

 

* dealing with the kids that are within their zone -- cannot accept kids

outside of county and state.

 

Getting kids from their zone free...instead of having to charge kids. Deep puddle vs shallow one. I've been over this argument and used Hamilton County numbers. Apparently you didnt read it. We have fewer kids in our pool of potential students than the publics we play.

 

And that about sums it up...to try to explain IT you have to shotgun 10 things, all of which may or may not be true for any particular private or public. In other words, there is no IT. IT is simply the fact that some of the small privates have had a lot of success in the last 10 years. Amazing that IT wasn't IT before that...even though the small privates and publics have been playing for 30 years. Could it be the IT is just the green-eyed monster...nah...IT must be some advantage.

 

p.s. If IT is what makes a few privates good in Football, would you say the Trousdale, South Pitt, Alcoa, etc have IT too? If not, how can they be good and not have IT. Could the small privates be good and not have IT too?

[BackinTN]

QUOTE(Baldcoach @ Jun 8 2007 - 10:49 PM) 826473156[/snapback]Ahh...and that is logic is it? I thought I was the one who changed subjects and avoided answering. All I asked for was a few specific instances out of the hundreds that must be occurring if privates do what you said they do. Your response is that You have all the proof You need...I should grow up and move on.

 

Now who was it that accused someone else of avoiding and changing the subject? After all, as they would say in the courts, you opened the door with your allegations...it's too late to close it now. Should I just let you make unfounded allegations without asking for evidence because you are obviously the expert and completely unbiased? /blink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blink:" border="0" alt="blink.gif" />

 

Btw, you haven't answered...25 athletes that have transferred in the last year or 2 out of the hundreds in 7th - 9th that must be making the move. Or are you just grabbing numbers out of the air with no facts?

 

While you're at it you might want to check out the difference between financial aid and scholarships, and the differences between DI and DII...

Larry,

 

DI or DII?

 

 

 

You are the one who is throwing around numbers. You are trying to make my statements include much more than I have every said. I have said I know of personal specific instances. You call me a liar, but I know what I know. If you think for one second that I am going to name names and point fingers at specific schools on a sports massage board, you are crazy. Thats the same argument that privates always use. Thats my point of saying move on. That not changing the subject. Thats my refusal to keep beating the same dead horse. And I hate to tell you, you have been beaten by privates that may not be following the rules as closely as your school may or may not be. So if your school is following the rules, why would you not be as strongly for identifying and correcting the problem of those schools who are not? You blindly profess the innocence of privates, when you may be the most sightless of all. Its happening, and its happened to you.

As far as the difference between financial aid and scholarships, in the eyes of a parent who can be swayed, there is no difference. Their childs education is getting paid for by someone other than them. Not talking about technical differences at all. That is not the point, but that is the loopholes that some use.

[BackinTN]

QUOTE(fan6 @ Jun 8 2007 - 07:19 PM) 826473064[/snapback]. . . it’s existence is rarely questioned? You’re joking right? We are posting on a message board totally focused on the “problem”. You’ve brought nothing to this argument that others haven’t brought countless times before. The difference is (and I can’t believe I’m saying this), posters like MPHSTIGER are able to argue their points without being condescending, preachy and redundant. I may not agree with the arguments, but for the most part, I can respect the tone.

 

You rail against those of us who “slander”, but your posts have consistently been the most degrading (“ . . . Did you forget to take some medication”; “ . . . try to be of some consequence next time . . .”; “Grow up and move on . . .” and my personal favorite “ . . . It makes you think you are bigger and smarter than you are . . .”). You hop on your “Family honor” soapbox (on another thread) to defend your mother, who was in no way slandered because you think you are gaining the moral high ground. What started as a constructive thread discussing different options for the public private split has become a repetitive sermon based on your “fact based opinions”. Even when I gig you a little on your posts, you come back with another 300 word sermon which brings nothing new to the argument. All you have done is take your “personal experience”, claim it as fact and degrade those of us who imply that we’ve heard it all before.

 

 

I only became condescending after being attacked and called a liar. Sorry if your feelings were hurt. As far as being redundant, is it my fault if what I have witnessed personally is being branded as lies and I have to repeat it? I dont question nor need it repeated that there are lots of great privates that are above board.