Age to throw curveball

[Mwalls14]

QUOTE(davidlimbaugh @ May 30 2007 - 09:27 PM) 826469384[/snapback]You can argue all you want. I had rather someone argue with me so maybe a 3rd party will see the light and save an arm or two.

 

Until someone is a freshman in high school, all they need to do is long toss, fastball and change up - and no splitfinger stuff or other silly stuff, just a simple circle change... See Trevor Hoffman.....

 

 

 

Disagree with you there. The circle change is the most difficult pitch in baseball to master. Most kid's hands are simply not big enough/strong enough to control a circle change. There's a reason why the splitter revolutionized the game. It is also a much easier pitch to command than a circle change.

 

The curveball is most dangerous when young kids try to snap the ball. Proper education on the mechanics of the curveball reduces injuries. Unfortunately, most dads simply don't know that, and for that reason it's safer to avoid it.

 

I'm opposed to throwing a curveball until 14 or 15, but not because of some doctor's threats. I want to see a young kid develop proper mechanics and be able to hit spots at a young age, as well as have the confidence to mix speeds. To add in a curveball is just more than someone needs to learn at a time.

 

When we work with our pitchers, we expect them to have three pitches that they can throw for strikes in every count, as well as be comfortable throwing a breaking ball behind in the count. You can't expect someone to throw a curveball for the first time at age 15 and master it in a year. So I think it's important to work on it, but with a 4-seam, 2-seam and change, you can be effective when you command the zone.

[BackinTN]

QUOTE(Mwalls14 @ May 30 2007 - 10:53 PM) 826469426[/snapback]Disagree with you there. The circle change is the most difficult pitch in baseball to master. Most kid's hands are simply not big enough/strong enough to control a circle change. There's a reason why the splitter revolutionized the game. It is also a much easier pitch to command than a circle change.

 

The curveball is most dangerous when young kids try to snap the ball. Proper education on the mechanics of the curveball reduces injuries. Unfortunately, most dads simply don't know that, and for that reason it's safer to avoid it.

 

I'm opposed to throwing a curveball until 14 or 15, but not because of some doctor's threats. I want to see a young kid develop proper mechanics and be able to hit spots at a young age, as well as have the confidence to mix speeds. To add in a curveball is just more than someone needs to learn at a time.

 

When we work with our pitchers, we expect them to have three pitches that they can throw for strikes in every count, as well as be comfortable throwing a breaking ball behind in the count. You can't expect someone to throw a curveball for the first time at age 15 and master it in a year. So I think it's important to work on it, but with a 4-seam, 2-seam and change, you can be effective when you command the zone.

 

 

For small hands a circle change is difficult to throw...and it usually has little movement. A properly thrown circle will have the bottom fall out of it right at the plate. A palm change is easier for a small handed kid to throw and control, although it doesnt have the movement of the circle. A kid who has thrown a change for a while can learn that just a slight turn of the wrist, and I mean very slight, either in or out can cause the ball to have more movement. This causes no strain on the elbow and shoulder. If his hands become big enough to throw a true circle change, that slight wrist motion he has learned can become a fantastic dropping and moving change up...ala Greg Maddox. Because of the exact arm motion of a fastball, a great change up can be much more effective than a great curve ball.

Kids dont need to throw a curve until after puberty...thats not an age, thats a hormonal thing. Can be anywhere from 12-16...depends on the kid. The growth plates cant handle it until after that growth. Even then, it needs to be sparingly thrown until the plates have hardened. If you rush them to throw a curve, you may be rushing them to the end of their career. Why??? What kid has gone pro from little league 0r 13 year old travel ball? Its overly competitive coaches and parents wanting to benefit their own egos that are usually at fault.

I have seen the damage it does and its not worth it to pad the win loss record of a coach or a kid who's father wants bragging rights.

[davidlimbaugh]

QUOTE(Mwalls14 @ May 30 2007 - 10:53 PM) 826469426[/snapback]Disagree with you there. The circle change is the most difficult pitch in baseball to master. Most kid's hands are simply not big enough/strong enough to control a circle change. There's a reason why the splitter revolutionized the game. It is also a much easier pitch to command than a circle change.

 

 

If he can't master the circle change, then the old rawhide change willl do. But trying to master any change is a lot less stress on the arm - agreed?

Splitter is tough on the elbow. Roger Clemens is the exception to that. But most pitchers who have relied on the splitter have spent some time on the DL over their career....

[Solomon]

In a semi-related topic that doesn't deserve it's own topic, are any of you involved with a Little League program that has went to the pitch count method of tracking pitchers this year? If so, how is it working. One of the few side effects I see of it is that it's going to make pitchers more aggressive to throw a curve ball more often to strike the kids out and keep the pitch count down.

[keyplayer]

All pitchers should throw the fastball at 90%. If the hands are too small to change grips, then throw a 70% fastball. If the pitcher can remain balanced, then throw 99% fastball on a few occasions. Thats one pitch at three different speeds. I would lose every game before i taught a curve ball to someone younger than 14!

[JoseWales]

QUOTE(BackinTN @ May 31 2007 - 08:02 AM) 826469517[/snapback]. Why??? What kid has gone pro from little league 0r 13 year old travel ball? Its overly competitive coaches and parents wanting to benefit their own egos that are usually at fault.

I have seen the damage it does and its not worth it to pad the win loss record of a coach or a kid who's father wants bragging rights.

 

 

 

Looking at the bigger picture (no pun intended), we are talking about an age for curve balls. Consider this, in high school, I see way too many kids with rotator cuff and elbow problems. Not from curves, but from things like 1)improper or no warm up, 2)poor pitching form (from throwing too hard), and 3) too many pitches. I'm talking about the top 10%, the ones that might play at the next level, but are the ones getting the raw end of the deal, just to win for their Coach, dad, or themselves. Nobody want to hurt these kids, but it happens. There is not an easy solution to correct this other than education.

[BackinTN]

QUOTE(davidlimbaugh @ May 31 2007 - 08:04 AM) 826469518[/snapback]If he can master the circle change, then the old rawhide change willl do. But trying to master any change is a lot less stress on the arm - agreed?

Splitter is tough on the elbow. Roger Clemens is the exception to that. But most pitchers who have relied on the splitter have spent some time on the DL over their career....

 

 

 

Definitely agree that the splitter is tough on the elbow. Another option that is not taught very much because most dont know how to teach a kid how to throw it effectlvely is a cut fastball. Again, it places minimal strain on the elbow, but creates an across the plate movement. Most teach it wrong by tring to get to much snap like a curveball. A true cutter is almost same speed as a fastball, and slides across the strike zone, with little downward movement...great pitch to run inside on a kid crowding the plate, or run away from a kid standing back from the plate. With work and proper technique, a good pitcher can run it both directions.

[gunzablazin5]

Fastball and Changeup are the most effective two pitches in the game. The best pitcher I hit against in college was a fastball/changeup guy with a 93mph fastball and 82-84mph changeup. You didn't know what was coming due to both pitches coming out of his hand the same. If you can't win with those two pitches then you don't need to be a pitcher. A curveball is a pitch IN MY OPINION that only needs to be thrown just to show the hitters you have one. No need to make a living off of it.

[zonepirate]

QUOTE(Solomon @ May 31 2007 - 08:15 AM) 826469524[/snapback]In a semi-related topic that doesn't deserve it's own topic, are any of you involved with a Little League program that has went to the pitch count method of tracking pitchers this year? If so, how is it working. One of the few side effects I see of it is that it's going to make pitchers more aggressive to throw a curve ball more often to strike the kids out and keep the pitch count down.

 

 

 

When I was coaching LL we tracked pitch counts during the games. Innings don't mean much since a 3 and out inning is a whole lot less pitching than a 7-8 batter inning. We counted pitches for all of our pitchers in Jr High this year and used that to determine when to pull and how much rest between outings

[BackinTN]

QUOTE(gunzablazin5 @ May 31 2007 - 08:48 AM) 826469533[/snapback]Fastball and Changeup are the most effective two pitches in the game. The best pitcher I hit against in college was a fastball/changeup guy with a 93mph fastball and 82-84mph changeup. You didn't know what was coming due to both pitches coming out of his hand the same. If you can't win with those two pitches then you don't need to be a pitcher. A curveball is a pitch IN MY OPINION that only needs to be thrown just to show the hitters you have one. No need to make a living off of it.

 

 

I agree totally with you gunz! I was the exact style pitcher you talked about, and was left handed. I didnt have a curve ball for squat, and it really didnt matter. I could throw a good hard fast ball that had some decent natural movement. My out pitch was the change (circle) that I could get the bottom to fall out of and make it move either direction. The other pitches I threw were for show, just so a hitter wouldnt dig in too deep and try to sit on the fastball or guess change.

[73choctawqb]

QUOTE(gunzablazin5 @ May 31 2007 - 08:48 AM) 826469533[/snapback]Fastball and Changeup are the most effective two pitches in the game. The best pitcher I hit against in college was a fastball/changeup guy with a 93mph fastball and 82-84mph changeup. You didn't know what was coming due to both pitches coming out of his hand the same. If you can't win with those two pitches then you don't need to be a pitcher. A curveball is a pitch IN MY OPINION that only needs to be thrown just to show the hitters you have one. No need to make a living off of it.

 

Sure saw a lot of curve balls in & around the "Boro" this year for kids NOT to be livin off of it !

[BackinTN]

QUOTE(73choctawqb @ May 31 2007 - 09:31 AM) 826469555[/snapback]Sure saw a lot of curve balls in & around the "Boro" this year for kids NOT to be livin off of it !

 

 

 

A lot of kids do make a living off of it. Most high school kids that are playing in the fling in the boro have gone through puberty, lol. Not too many 12-13 yr olds playing in the state tourny. Kids that throw in the 80's have make a living off of curve balls, because their fastball isnt good enough to be a set up for a change up. Most of the pitching in high school is upper 70 lower 80's range. There are always kids around that throw harder, but they are definitely not as common, and those kids can rely on a good fastball as their main pitch. This topic is about when to start throwiing a curve, not about physically matured kids who are already throwing it.