2A enrollment versus polls

[alcoafan72]

Why don't some of these former football players become two sport athletes, stop transferring out and build your football program? There are always two sport athletes at small schools even schools with winning football programs.

I'll let you in on something...some of the "best" athletes at Alcoa walked the halls and never played organized sports at the school.

[alcoafan72]

Take a look at this and see what's going on with the Blount Co. talent pool (Knox co. also).

 

http://tennessee.coacht.com/article.cfm?id=29398

[ksgovols]

Why don't some of these former football players become two sport athletes, stop transferring out and build your football program? There are always two sport athletes at small schools even schools with winning football programs.

I'll let you in on something...some of the "best" athletes at Alcoa walked the halls and never played organized sports at the school.

 

 

I agree that's what you have to have. All hands on deck instead of specializing in one sport. 1A and 2A schools cannot afford to have athletes playing one sport only, but 3 sport athletes are frowned upon these days.

 

The reasons behind that is another thread for another day.

[NoNameD]

If Maryville and Alcoa pull all the in county and surrounding area talent, then way is William Blount also the Number #1 ranked 5A team in the state!?

 

Sucess breeds sucess! If you want to be a champion watch what a champion does. For Blount County teams they don't have to go far to see how the other does it!

 

If people think the sucess Maryville and Alcoa has had in the last three years comes from open zone, then we'll just keep the secret to ourselves...............feeder programs, middle school programs......opps, did I say that?

 

-BlountCountySportsFan

[To prove your point that it is feeder programs middle school programs coaching, tradition etc, then tell everyone who are the transfer tuition paying students that have played for Maryville teams in the past 10 years so that people will not think that your championships are tainted. /quote]

[NoNameD]

If Maryville and Alcoa pull all the in county and surrounding area talent, then way is William Blount also the Number #1 ranked 5A team in the state!?

 

Sucess breeds sucess! If you want to be a champion watch what a champion does. For Blount County teams they don't have to go far to see how the other does it!

 

If people think the sucess Maryville and Alcoa has had in the last three years comes from open zone, then we'll just keep the secret to ourselves...............feeder programs, middle school programs......opps, did I say that?

 

-BlountCountySportsFan

[Maybe the coach from William Blount has found out a way to keep his players ay William Blount./quote]

[F5HallOfFamer]

If people think the sucess Maryville and Alcoa has had in the last three years comes from open zone, then we'll just keep the secret to ourselves...............feeder programs, middle school programs......opps, did I say that?

 

-BlountCountySportsFan

[Maybe the coach from William Blount has found out a way to keep his players ay William Blount./quote]

I can tell you as an Alcoa Alum that 99% of Alcoa's Star Athletes, all-staters, etc.. are BORN AND RAISED IN ALCOA!!! What part are you people not understanding! There's no recruiting goin on in Blount Co. We just know how to win Gold balls!

[Govolsknox]

by putting them in the ABC region. It was the perfect storm. A program that was on a down cycle is stuck in the toughest region in 2A. What's more, a talented tailback transferred to BA, a big lineman to Father Ryan, a couple of athletes to Ensworth. Now the rest of the players are wondering what in the heck they are doing playing football. They gravitated to basketball where they've been to region 3 of the last 4 years and have had 5 or 6 guys get college scholarships. They stuck with baseball, where they've been to state 2 out of the last 3 years and had about 10 sign college scholarships. What the football team needs is for more of the athletes walking the halls to come out for football whether we play in 2A or 5A.

 

 

I wouldn't even try to speak to the specifics of your situation, but I do know this: Nearly every school in 2A has a situation similar to what you describe or the exact reverse. By that I mean that in a 2A sized school, it is a huge challenge to get the best athletes to commit to one sport over the others. The talent pool is too small. If your best athletes play baseball and basketball, but not football, football is going to suffer. If your best athletes play basketball and not football or baseball, they are likely to suffer. Yes, there are always exceptions in 2A. And in a 5A school, you probably can make it work. But when you only have 500 kids and 250 are male, if your best athletes don't commit to playing multiple sports you probably aren't going to have the best results in athletics, particularly in football where numbers are so critical.

 

I say all that to make the point that part of what makes a football program sucessful is the coaches ability to get the school's best athletes to come out for football. Like you said, "What the football team needs is for more of the athletes walking the halls to come out for football whether we play in 2A or 5A." If you have a school on "a down cycle" that probably will contribute to good football players going elsewhere to play, and others deciding that they'll just pass on football and play basketball, baseball, or run track. I'm not so sure the problem you describe is because of private / public issues.

 

Take region 2 / 2A: You have Alcoa, Loudon, CAK, Rockwood, Sweetwater, Oliver Springs, and Wartburg. Wartburg is a program with a new coach, a new attitude, and they are making improvement. But they have a 25 plus game losing streak. I don't know but I suspect it is difficult for the coach to generate excitement about football and 2 a days... Not because of private schools but because they play in a region much stronger than them right now.

 

How about region 2 / 5A. I suspect Heritage has the same difficulty playing against Oak Ridge, Ooltewah, Farragut, William Blount, etc. Similar difficulty, no private schools in their region.

 

I think the problem many times is 1. a coach who has trouble getting the best kids out for football (if the program is struggling) and 2. playing in a strong region where the other programs are superior at that point in time. Whether those other schools are public or private isn't the key problem IMO if you can't solve these 2 difficult issues.

[ksgovols]

Oh no. It has nothing to do with private schools. Placing Harpeth in the 'private school' region for a couple of years just kept a 'hob-nailed boot on our throats'. TSSAA stuck 3 public schools in an 8 team region with Goodpasture, CPA, DCA, Ezell-Harding and FRA. Two of us got out with the restructuring of 2A this past year. That will help. A little success during the regular season will help generate interest in the program.

 

That's why I say a 'perfect storm' scenario. The program had enough problems as it was and then to get tossed in a region where it was going to be difficult to compete during the best of times, was just another reason for the athletes to stay away from the football field. The guys that transferred to private schools would have gone regardless. They didn't necessarily go for athletic reasons only.

 

My only gripe is the 'does more with less' comment. I don't see it that way. I think the multiplier is an equalizer though sometimes misplaced. It's not a one size fits all solution. A merit system that divides the schools according to talent is the better method. There will still be kids that gravitate towards more competitive programs. I take offense that 'working really hard' is going to magically solve all of the intrensic problems that a public rural school has and some of the competitive disadvantages that are built in. Truly, our county could open up the zones and charge out of zone tuition or whatever and there would be mass transferring across the boards. The kids would gravitate to what they percieved as the better program. The end result would be about the same enrollment numbers, but those numbers would be skewed by the tuition athletes. There's a difference. People just don't want to recognize it.

[Govolsknox]

I respect your imput and I think this is a very good post, one that I agree with 100%. Given the choice I would send my son to the best program for him. If I were living in an urban area I would sent my child to a private school. And I would choose one that had strong athletic programs. If I coached at a private I would get the best players I was allowed to get. I place no blame on privates for getting the best players they can. My frustration is the pretending that it doesn't create an advantage for them over those of us who do not have this same opportunity to reload with one or two needed players. The fact is the lower the classification a school is in the fewer impact players it takes for them to be competitive. I'm not trying to down privates, fact is those who suceed in athletics put a lot into it. They have good coaches and provide a huge amount of support for their programs. There are many rural schools who provide the same support. With those factors being equal it comes down to who has the best players to choose from to make up their team and there lies the rub. I respect everyones opinion on this long debated subject.

 

 

 

Thank you, and you make good points as well. I think sometimes when people look at private schools, there is an assumption that the equation is all positive as far as building your football program. This simply isn't the case. Yes, there are some positives, but there are also some real negatives. Others have done a great job of pointing out the positives so I'll point out a couple of difficulties.

1. You have to pay to attend. In division 1, you can't offer tuition assisance. How many great athletes at public schools do you know that couldn't afford to attend private school? Rule all of these out for the privates.

2. Public schools benefit from the fact that kids within a given geography are going to automatically attend their school. Do you think this is helpful for Fulton, Austin East, Oak Ridge, etc.? Privates have no one that will automatically attend their school.

3. Privates have to "win out" when a parent is choosing where to send their student athlete. In my area, if a family has the resources and decides to send their child to private school, there is Knoxville Webb, CAK, and Knox Catholic in a 2 square mile area. **

4. Many times, the school work is more difficult at private schools. Not always, but many times there is more time required to make decent grades. Do you think this might effect whether a kid who is a great athlete but not super studious wants to attend? How about the student athlete remaining eligible to play due to grades?

5. Don't forget the multiplier. Whether you are for it or against it, the fact is that privates have to accept it.

 

I could go on, but my main point is that when one is considering the private school issue, if you are going to form an objective opinion you have to look at these and other negatives. Not just think about the funding, support, etc. that people are so quick to point out.

 

** I should have pointed out for those out of our area that all 3 of these teams have above avg. football programs, therefore it is competitive.

[Govolsknox]

Oh no. It has nothing to do with private schools. Placing Harpeth in the 'private school' region for a couple of years just kept a 'hob-nailed boot on our throats'. TSSAA stuck 3 public schools in an 8 team region with Goodpasture, CPA, DCA, Ezell-Harding and FRA. Two of us got out with the restructuring of 2A this past year. That will help. A little success during the regular season will help generate interest in the program.

 

That's why I say a 'perfect storm' scenario. The program had enough problems as it was and then to get tossed in a region where it was going to be difficult to compete during the best of times, was just another reason for the athletes to stay away from the football field. The guys that transferred to private schools would have gone regardless. They didn't necessarily go for athletic reasons only.

 

My only gripe is the 'does more with less' comment. I don't see it that way. I think the multiplier is an equalizer though sometimes misplaced. It's not a one size fits all solution. A merit system that divides the schools according to talent is the better method. There will still be kids that gravitate towards more competitive programs. I take offense that 'working really hard' is going to magically solve all of the intrensic problems that a public rural school has and some of the competitive disadvantages that are built in. Truly, our county could open up the zones and charge out of zone tuition or whatever and there would be mass transferring across the boards. The kids would gravitate to what they percieved as the better program. The end result would be about the same enrollment numbers, but those numbers would be skewed by the tuition athletes. There's a difference. People just don't want to recognize it.

 

 

Great points. I agree totally. Working hard is a given and is crucial, but there are other factors too.

[Rankinated2010]

Alcoa - 473

Around 18% of the whole school is on the Football team haha really , thats including guys and girls

18% wow

and more than 50% are active in some other sport

i belive thats alot for a small school like us

[GotGame]

Here is the Earl Nall current poll showing rank / school / actual enrollment / multiplied enrollment:

1. Goodpasture - 360 - 648

2. Alcoa - 473 - 473

3. Westview - 627 - 627

4. Lewis Co. - 553 - 553

5. CPA - 310 - 558

6. DCA - 335 - 603

7. Camden - 605 - 605

8. Milan - 577 - 577

9. Smith Co. - 644 -644

10. Loudon - 675 -675

This post is not to discuss the fairness / justification of the multiplier, but to point out what an amazing job some 2A schools are doing with the numbers they have.

Alcoa - after multiplier, smallest school in Top 10, yet has won last 2 titles and dominated 2A for the last few years.

CPA and DCA - actual enrollment is over 200 less than all but 3 other top 10 teams. If we assume:

- 1/2 of school is male

- 33% of males play football

- 1/2 playing football are juniors and seniors

- juniors and seniors are usually the best players on the team

then, a team with 200 less actual students should have 16-20 less junior and senior players than another team in their classification. To still compete head-up in that situation is quite an accomplishment regardless of the supposed advantages of a private school.

Even with the multiplier, CPA and Alcoa are 8th and 10th in enrollment in the Top 10 Earl Nall poll and are contenders each year.

What is even more amazing is that with such a small enrollment, CPA 2-platoons for the most part, utilizing freshment and sophomores as starters against teams with almost all junior and senior starters.

 

Please don't let this post become a private/public argument. I am not complaining about the multiplier, just stating some interesting enrollment/results facts.

 

What is the difference in the average number of coaches in the stats? Also these smaller schools still field more players than most in the classification...