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I take it y'all have never been to a HS game in Louisiana? /roflolk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflolk:" border="0" alt="roflolk.gif" />

 

Only place I have ever been that had fried frog legs at the concession stand.

 

 

Nope, never been to one in Louisiana. That's VERY unique though indeed!

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/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

I wonder if they will try and ban the Fellowship of Christian Atheletes next?

 

Telling Coach Thompson to do something is one thing, getting him to do anything against his better judgement is another.

 

/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> very true

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It is late, and I have to wake up in 4 hours to go to work, so let me quickly address a few things I've noticed in this thread and maybe I'll expand upon my thoughts when my brain is clearer:

 

1.) They will not ban FCA. It is a voluntary student organization. There is a difference (in my opinion, at least), in joining FCA and having a mandatory Christian prayer before and after each practice.

 

2.) To Topgun: I wouldn't have a problem with people form churches coming in to hand out bibles and answer questions. Iraq is mostly Muslim, though. So turn that around for the USA. Would most people be okay with Muslims from the local Mosque coming in to your local school to hand out copies of the Qur'an to their children? If we are honest people, we would have to say no. People around here would be in an absolute uproar. Then they would use the whole "separation of church and state" to their advantage. So, yeah, that freedom thing would be nice, but you can't blame that situation solely on we atheists. We just seem to be the malcontents because we are in the minority.

 

3.) And to Burroball: Thanks for saying that I actually sound like I know what I am talking about a little bit. While I am no theologian, I have read most of the bible and studied it a smidgen in an effort to understand Christianity better. I really do want to believe (I am the only atheist in my family, and my father-in-law is a preacher), but I lack the fundemental faith that is needed. And it just irks me to no end that I - a non-Christian - appear to have a better handle on Christian tenets than most followers that I have met over my lifetime. Ah, but I digress...

 

Anyway, on to my point. I don't think at all that Christians are not allowed to express their belifs in the public arena. You can look everywhere and see Christians. The only time when you can't, really, is when it appears that you are doing ti to the detriment of other beliefs and almost forcing others to go along with it. Now, stay with me here, that's not as mean-spirited as it sounds. Let's take prayer after a football practice, for example. I'm sure the coaches would pray for everyone to be safe. Well, one guy has a brother in Iraq, so the coach throws him in there. Another guy has a missionary brother going to Afghanistan, so the coach asks God to help that man spread Christianity to the Muslims. Well, there's a Muslim on the team, and he asks why Christianity is better than his religion. Maybe there is a Jewish guy on the team, so he remarks that it doesn't matter, because both religions are wrong. I mean, where does it end? Now say, fr example, a player comes up after practice and asks the coach about Christianity. The coach can talk all he wants about it with that one curious player, because he asked for it. He's still talking about his faith in a public forum, but he's not forcing it on the kids that don't want to hear it. That's really all this is about.

And as for Tim Tebow... people like to point out his flaws because the guy is untouchable. The nature of some people is to be jealous, so they have to tear him down. They make fun of his strong beliefs because that's just about all they have on him. I mean, I'm a Tennessee fan, but by all accounts he's a great guy, so they don't have much on him to make fun of.

One thing I am curious about in your post... You said:

 

"Christians aren't allowed to force non-Christians to stand up for their beliefs the same way in the face of scrutiny. One ideology is bombarding a group of people with pressure through every media source imaginable in addition to people they meet in public to violate God's standard. The other is legally prohibited from doing the same kind of bombardment to people to obey God's standard."

 

You seem to be a very level-headed and reasonable person, but I have a little problem with this. How are you legally prohibited from bombarding non-Christians? The only thing you aren't allowed to do is use a government platform to attack other religions. I have met many preachers on the side of the road attempting to spread god's word. I've seen TBN (I consider this more of a greed channel than a Christian channel, anyway) and other religious stations that do nothing but try and attack non-Christians. Our newspapers are filled with articles of churches. We have pastors write weekly columns about religion. And I don't really see an attack on Christianity, other than the ACLU. But that is balanced out by the many Christian groups, anyway. It just seems like everyone is attacking Christianity because the majority of people in the south are Christians. I honestly believe that, if it were another religion doing the same thing, we atheists would be doing just as we are now. And maybe you would be joining us.

 

(note: I do not agree with everything the ACLU does, and I certainly do not agree with every court case that is fought over freedom of religion.)

 

I mean, you are taking all of this as an attack on Christianity. It is not. Yuo are free to say whatever belief yuo have. But you are not allowed to use a position of power (such as teacher, coach, etc) to convey a message of one religion's superiority over another. I mean, seriously, what will coaches do when one of their players asks not to be a part of the prayer?

 

"I'm the coach, and I'm Baptist, so we are going to do a traditional Baptist prayer."

"But coach, I'm Jewish. I don't believe that Jesus was my savior."

"Then go stand over there. You're not going to be part of the team right now."

 

That's just not right, man. I thought sports were supposed to be about comraderie, testing your limits, and building trust in your fellow man. How can you trust someone who just kicked you out of a huddle, not because you messed up, not because you talked back or did anything wrong, but because you believe in a different god or different prophet? So, then, I guess the kid is going to be kicked out of every prayer huddle for the rest of his high school career? Maybe he should just bow his head and say nothing. Wouldn't taht be considered praying to a false God? Isn't that breaking commandment number 1? (And, technically, maybe number 5, if the kid has got religious parents...) Again, if the tables were turned, I think few people would be willing to let their child kneel through a prayer to Allah every day at school.

 

This is why I say, let the coach bow his head, but not lead the prayer. Let the kids work it out on their own. This is the south. You know there will be enough strong willed Christians that they will have a prayer every day anyway.

 

 

Whew. I'm going to bed.

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3.) And to Burroball: Thanks for saying that I actually sound like I know what I am talking about a little bit. While I am no theologian, I have read most of the bible and studied it a smidgen in an effort to understand Christianity better. I really do want to believe (I am the only atheist in my family, and my father-in-law is a preacher), but I lack the fundemental faith that is needed. And it just irks me to no end that I - a non-Christian - appear to have a better handle on Christian tenets than most followers that I have met over my lifetime. Ah, but I digress...

 

Anyway, on to my point. I don't think at all that Christians are not allowed to express their belifs in the public arena. You can look everywhere and see Christians. The only time when you can't, really, is when it appears that you are doing ti to the detriment of other beliefs and almost forcing others to go along with it. Now, stay with me here, that's not as mean-spirited as it sounds. Let's take prayer after a football practice, for example. I'm sure the coaches would pray for everyone to be safe. Well, one guy has a brother in Iraq, so the coach throws him in there. Another guy has a missionary brother going to Afghanistan, so the coach asks God to help that man spread Christianity to the Muslims. Well, there's a Muslim on the team, and he asks why Christianity is better than his religion. Maybe there is a Jewish guy on the team, so he remarks that it doesn't matter, because both religions are wrong. I mean, where does it end? Now say, fr example, a player comes up after practice and asks the coach about Christianity. The coach can talk all he wants about it with that one curious player, because he asked for it. He's still talking about his faith in a public forum, but he's not forcing it on the kids that don't want to hear it. That's really all this is about.

And as for Tim Tebow... people like to point out his flaws because the guy is untouchable. The nature of some people is to be jealous, so they have to tear him down. They make fun of his strong beliefs because that's just about all they have on him. I mean, I'm a Tennessee fan, but by all accounts he's a great guy, so they don't have much on him to make fun of.

One thing I am curious about in your post... You said:

 

"Christians aren't allowed to force non-Christians to stand up for their beliefs the same way in the face of scrutiny. One ideology is bombarding a group of people with pressure through every media source imaginable in addition to people they meet in public to violate God's standard. The other is legally prohibited from doing the same kind of bombardment to people to obey God's standard."

 

You seem to be a very level-headed and reasonable person, but I have a little problem with this. How are you legally prohibited from bombarding non-Christians? The only thing you aren't allowed to do is use a government platform to attack other religions. I have met many preachers on the side of the road attempting to spread god's word. I've seen TBN (I consider this more of a greed channel than a Christian channel, anyway) and other religious stations that do nothing but try and attack non-Christians. Our newspapers are filled with articles of churches. We have pastors write weekly columns about religion. And I don't really see an attack on Christianity, other than the ACLU. But that is balanced out by the many Christian groups, anyway. It just seems like everyone is attacking Christianity because the majority of people in the south are Christians. I honestly believe that, if it were another religion doing the same thing, we atheists would be doing just as we are now. And maybe you would be joining us.

 

(note: I do not agree with everything the ACLU does, and I certainly do not agree with every court case that is fought over freedom of religion.)

 

I mean, you are taking all of this as an attack on Christianity. It is not. Yuo are free to say whatever belief yuo have. But you are not allowed to use a position of power (such as teacher, coach, etc) to convey a message of one religion's superiority over another. I mean, seriously, what will coaches do when one of their players asks not to be a part of the prayer?

 

"I'm the coach, and I'm Baptist, so we are going to do a traditional Baptist prayer."

"But coach, I'm Jewish. I don't believe that Jesus was my savior."

"Then go stand over there. You're not going to be part of the team right now."

 

That's just not right, man. I thought sports were supposed to be about comraderie, testing your limits, and building trust in your fellow man. How can you trust someone who just kicked you out of a huddle, not because you messed up, not because you talked back or did anything wrong, but because you believe in a different god or different prophet? So, then, I guess the kid is going to be kicked out of every prayer huddle for the rest of his high school career? Maybe he should just bow his head and say nothing. Wouldn't taht be considered praying to a false God? Isn't that breaking commandment number 1? (And, technically, maybe number 5, if the kid has got religious parents...) Again, if the tables were turned, I think few people would be willing to let their child kneel through a prayer to Allah every day at school.

 

This is why I say, let the coach bow his head, but not lead the prayer. Let the kids work it out on their own. This is the south. You know there will be enough strong willed Christians that they will have a prayer every day anyway.

 

 

What I mean is that because individualism is not recognized as a organized religion (make no mistake though it is a belief system.) it can be promoted by government officials and it is. How else do you have government officials discussing expanding abortion and homosexual rights and all these things that appeal to personal comfort and "freedom"?

 

I mean the general concept of secular law is that as long as you aren't harming society as a whole then you can consent to immoral behavior in private without consequence. So, a woman can go to a private abortion clinic and pay for a private doctor to abort their unborn child, but one can not choose to drown their own child in a bathtub in their own home without facing criminal charges. Likewise, one can have consensual sex with numerous partners in private and faces no criminal charges. However, if one is found on the street paying someone to consent to sex (excepting Nevada and Rhode Island) it is somehow considered coercion or something and subject to criminal charges.

 

I use those very radical examples to show how contradictory that principle is. How does drowning a child in a bathtub harm society's structure as a whole, but aborting an unborn child not? How does having consensual sex for free not harm society as a whole, but paying for consensual sex is largely considered to be harmful to society as a whole? I know those are loosely related to the topic, but basically I'm pointing out the flaws in what humans consider lawful compared to what God considers lawful.

 

Personally, I don't view other religions as legitimate. I know that sounds arrogant in today's politically correct atmosphere, but as a Christian I don't. There is God's way and there is my way. Those are the two legitimate ways. (Satan's way is trying to convince me that my way is better than God's way just as he believed his way was better than God's way) Islam and Judaism appeal to selfishness in attempting to grant themselves power that Jesus took from them by dying on the cross. Although, I should precursor all this by saying that I have friends who believe in other religions and I do not shove Jesus or the Bible down their throat at all. I have the utmost respect for their RIGHT to believe however they wish (just like God does). However, I do not respect their actual beliefs. I know their beliefs are ones that I disagree with and they know that I disagree with them. I am not ashamed to declare that Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6).

 

In today's society, if you tell someone that there is only ONE right way of living they are offended because all the sudden they see the standard and they subconsciously, if nothing else, know they can't meet it. That is why I believe Christians aren't received well (to put it mildly) in the public arena. (Granted, as you mentioned in your earlier post, many "Christians" don't do a very good job of even striving to live to up to that standard. Kinda kills the witness.) Jesus did something Hinduism and Buddhism didn't. He made it all about him and not about personal deeds. That's not something our biological makeup allows us to comprehend easily because we are born as babies with an inherent selfishness and all we understand are our desires. That is something Muslims and Jews don't agree with. That is why I don't refer to myself as "religious". Oh, I attend church when I can and I read my Bible when I can, but there is nothing I do or don't do to make it all good or all bad.

What I do is based on my belief that my King that I kneel before is good and will not do anything that is not in my best interest because my interest is his glory. Kind of like a relationship with a woman to some extent. I care about her needs so much to where it becomes that she cares more about my needs than I care about my needs.

 

Back to the actual topic and enough with the soap box sermon I jumped on there, I agree with you that coaches ought not to be leading the prayers of their team or telling their players to pray.

 

However, I don't believe Muslim or Jewish players should feel any more awkward around Christian players praying in a huddle than a Christian player should around a group of non-Christian players talking about how there going to have sex with girls (feel free to use whatever derogatory words and/or phrases you feel a teenage boy might use today where I said "have sex with") after the game Friday night. This is where the right to personal beliefs should be honored. Neither situation calls for inclusion of the offended party to join in on the act and likewise neither should the situation call for exclusion of the offended party for not joining in on the act. I hope that last sentence made sense. It is late, but it made sense in my brain while typing it.

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Guest catsvoice

Wait a minute let's not lose track of the original issue here. This is not about a coach LEADING his team in prayer and certainly not about a coach forcing anybody to pray to anyone else's God. Here is the quote from the original article:

 

"But a case making its way to the U.S. Supreme Court could specifically prevent Thompson and other coaches of public schools from praying with their teams, even if the players initiate the prayer on their own."

 

So dont' try to turn this into something about a coach forcing kids to pray based on a specific religion. The Lord's Prayer, which is what Thompson's team says, doesn't mention Jesus or Mohammad or anything else. It's just God.

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