Recruiting

[TheEgoHasLanded]

I think recruiting to public school supporters is private schools being able to tell prospective parents that we have so and so like...

 

1-religious education

2-safe enviroments

3-good facilities (inside and out)

4-attentive teachers

5-freedom to teach at an accelerated rate, or to also have classes for slower kids

 

public schools cant say this, also take into account the fact that they are jealous of private schools money, and you have people cryin foul.

 

I have said many times, I am jealous of people that are accepted to UVA (I wasn't) or Harvard...I have no problem saying that they are smarter, or have more money, or are lucky cus they live in Virginia or NC and can get in easier...for some reason, no one else will just admit it when other schools offer things that yours dont, and instead they make it a point to bad mouth them, or hope that they diminish, or simply move away. Schools are here to educate, not win state championships.

[ELA]

The TSSAA has struggled with this rule for years and I will try to explain the difference in a way that everyone will understand. Recruiting is recruiting it doesn't matter who starts the conversation! If it isn't totally begun by the parents, it is still recruiting! The TSSAA has two basic areas of rules that affect us all in these areas. First of all, TRANSFER RULES are a more applicable for public schools when ZONING IS in question; whereas, RECRUITING RULES are more applicable to private schools. The TSSAA WOULD make it a recruting violation for any contact about the schools if they could, so that is why THEY call it a "GREY AREA!" Here is what the handbook says about recruiting:

 

TSSAA HANDBOOK SENIOR BYLAWS: Section 21. The use of undue influence on a student (with or without an athletic record), the parents or guardians of a student by any person connected, or not connected, with the school to secure or to retain a student for athletic purposes shall be a violation of the recruiting rule.

 

Additional comments in the handbook regarding recruiting:

 

Recruiting Rule

1.Q. How is undue influence interpreted in the recruiting rule?

A. A person or persons exceeding what is appropriate or normal and offering an incentive or

inducement to a student with or without an athletic record.

2.Q. What is the penalty for violation of the recruiting rule?

A. Violation of the recruiting rule shall cause the student to be ineligible at the school in violation,

and a penalty shall be placed against the school.

3.Q. Is it permissible for a coach to contact a student or his or her parents prior to his enrollment in

the school?

A. No, a coach may not contact a student or his or her parents prior to his enrollment in the school.

This shall apply to all students whether or not they have an athletic record.

4.

Q. What are some of the guides used in determining whether there has been undue influence used

which would result in a violation of the recruiting rule?

A. Some examples are, but not limited to:

1.Providing of transportation or other inducement to any prospective student/athlete to take a

qualifying examination at a school, meet with school officials, etc.

2.Discussion of financial aid based on need with any prospective student/athlete by any member of

the coaching staff until the student has enrolled in school (attended 3 days of school). All financial

aid questions should be referred to the principal or the person in charge of financial aid. If the

person in charge of financial aid is a coach, prior approval must be granted by the Executive

Director of TSSAA.

3.Any initial contact or prearranged contact by a member of the coaching staff or representative of

the school and a prospective student/athlete enrolled in any member school except where there is

a definite feeder pattern.

4.Any initial contact or prearranged contact by a member of the coaching staff or representative of

the school and a prospective student/athlete in the seventh grade and above at any non-member

school except where there is a definite feeder pattern involving the schools.

Public high schools may contact public feeder schools (elementary, middle school, junior high

school) where there is a definite feeder pattern. Private or parochial schools may contact private

schools (elementary, middle school, junior high school) where there is a definite feeder pattern.

Private or parochial schools may not contact students enrolled at the public schools. Public schools

may not contact students enrolled at the private schools.

5.Any contact between a member of the coaching staff or representative of the school and prospective student/athletes prior to, during, or after contests at elementary schools, middle schools, and junior high schools except where there is a definite pattern.

6.A member school is prohibited from giving any item with school advertisement (shirts, pennants,

caps, jackets, etc.)

7.Admitting students to athletic contests free of charge where there is an admission being charged

at the contest except where there is a definite feeder pattern involved with the school.

5.Q. What is allowed by member schools in contacting prospective students?

A. A representative of the school may meet with students at a school that is defined as a feeder

school or meet with students who are zoned to attend that school the following year. This visit must

be cleared by the principals of both schools.

 

Here is another section that was added after the lawsuit to define the Undue Influence Rule:

 

Guidelines For Understanding The "Recruiting Rule" and Understanding "What Is Undue

Influence?"

 

1. The major theme of the "recruiting rule" is not "initial contact." The major theme is "exceeding

what is normal and appropriate." Initial contact can be a violation, but is only one of many things

that can exceed what is normal and appropriate.

2. One key is not treating "athletes" or "prospective athletes" any differently than students who are

not athletes.

3. Students should be seen as students and not singled out based on their potential athletic ability.

4. Pre-arranged contact is seen in the same manner as initial contact.

5. Any student or family or individual that contacts a coach about attending a school where he or

she coaches should be informed that they need to contact the principal, admissions department,

or guidance department if they have an interest.

6. Any meeting with coaches regarding athletes or prospective athletes or their families should be at

the request of the family to the individual(s) responsible for admissions and should take place at

the school.

7. High school athletics is not the same as colleges recruiting high school athletes for college

athletics. High school athletics exist for an entirely different reason. High school coaches should

not view 12-, 13-, 14-year-old students in the same manner as college coaches view high school

seniors.

8. Administrators and coaches must realize that they have more responsibilities than the general

public to understand the purpose of high school athletics, the principles behind the TSSAA rules,

etc., and to maintain a level of understanding and purpose when dealing with the general public

and students.

[itzme]

Posted by ELA:

The TSSAA has struggled with this rule for years and I will try to explain the difference in a way that everyone will understand. Recruiting is recruiting it doesn't matter who starts the conversation! If it isn't totally begun by the parents, it is still recruiting! The TSSAA has two basic areas of rules that affect us all in these areas. First of all, TRANSFER RULES are a more applicable for public schools when ZONING IS in question; whereas, RECRUITING RULES are more applicable to private schools. The TSSAA WOULD make it a recruting violation for any contact about the schools if they could, so that is why THEY call it a "GREY AREA!" Here is what the handbook says about recruiting:

 

TSSAA HANDBOOK SENIOR BYLAWS: Section 21. The use of undue influence on a student (with or without an athletic record), the parents or guardians of a student by any person connected, or not connected, with the school to secure or to retain a student for athletic purposes shall be a violation of the recruiting rule.

 

Additional comments in the handbook regarding recruiting:

 

Recruiting Rule

1.Q. How is undue influence interpreted in the recruiting rule?

A. A person or persons exceeding what is appropriate or normal and offering an incentive or

inducement to a student with or without an athletic record.

2.Q. What is the penalty for violation of the recruiting rule?

A. Violation of the recruiting rule shall cause the student to be ineligible at the school in violation,

and a penalty shall be placed against the school.

3.Q. Is it permissible for a coach to contact a student or his or her parents prior to his enrollment in

the school?

A. No, a coach may not contact a student or his or her parents prior to his enrollment in the school.

This shall apply to all students whether or not they have an athletic record.

4.

Q. What are some of the guides used in determining whether there has been undue influence used

which would result in a violation of the recruiting rule?

A. Some examples are, but not limited to:

1.Providing of transportation or other inducement to any prospective student/athlete to take a

qualifying examination at a school, meet with school officials, etc.

2.Discussion of financial aid based on need with any prospective student/athlete by any member of

the coaching staff until the student has enrolled in school (attended 3 days of school). All financial

aid questions should be referred to the principal or the person in charge of financial aid. If the

person in charge of financial aid is a coach, prior approval must be granted by the Executive

Director of TSSAA.

3.Any initial contact or prearranged contact by a member of the coaching staff or representative of

the school and a prospective student/athlete enrolled in any member school except where there is

a definite feeder pattern.

4.Any initial contact or prearranged contact by a member of the coaching staff or representative of

the school and a prospective student/athlete in the seventh grade and above at any non-member

school except where there is a definite feeder pattern involving the schools.

Public high schools may contact public feeder schools (elementary, middle school, junior high

school) where there is a definite feeder pattern. Private or parochial schools may contact private

schools (elementary, middle school, junior high school) where there is a definite feeder pattern.

Private or parochial schools may not contact students enrolled at the public schools. Public schools

may not contact students enrolled at the private schools.

5.Any contact between a member of the coaching staff or representative of the school and prospective student/athletes prior to, during, or after contests at elementary schools, middle schools, and junior high schools except where there is a definite pattern.

6.A member school is prohibited from giving any item with school advertisement (shirts, pennants,

caps, jackets, etc.)

7.Admitting students to athletic contests free of charge where there is an admission being charged

at the contest except where there is a definite feeder pattern involved with the school.

5.Q. What is allowed by member schools in contacting prospective students?

A. A representative of the school may meet with students at a school that is defined as a feeder

school or meet with students who are zoned to attend that school the following year. This visit must

be cleared by the principals of both schools.

 

Here is another section that was added after the lawsuit to define the Undue Influence Rule:

 

Guidelines For Understanding The "Recruiting Rule" and Understanding "What Is Undue

Influence?"

 

1. The major theme of the "recruiting rule" is not "initial contact." The major theme is "exceeding

what is normal and appropriate." Initial contact can be a violation, but is only one of many things

that can exceed what is normal and appropriate.

2. One key is not treating "athletes" or "prospective athletes" any differently than students who are

not athletes.

3. Students should be seen as students and not singled out based on their potential athletic ability.

4. Pre-arranged contact is seen in the same manner as initial contact.

5. Any student or family or individual that contacts a coach about attending a school where he or

she coaches should be informed that they need to contact the principal, admissions department,

or guidance department if they have an interest.

6. Any meeting with coaches regarding athletes or prospective athletes or their families should be at

the request of the family to the individual(s) responsible for admissions and should take place at

the school.

7. High school athletics is not the same as colleges recruiting high school athletes for college

athletics. High school athletics exist for an entirely different reason. High school coaches should

not view 12-, 13-, 14-year-old students in the same manner as college coaches view high school

seniors.

8. Administrators and coaches must realize that they have more responsibilities than the general

public to understand the purpose of high school athletics, the principles behind the TSSAA rules,

etc., and to maintain a level of understanding and purpose when dealing with the general public

and students.

 

So when Rankin had that out of zone middle school kid over weightlifting at Riverdale this Summer, that was not recruiting because it is a public school? That had to be the funniest incident all year, to se him bluster and fluster.

 

As we all know, Riverdale's weight room is open to the public year round...kind of like the Y.

[itzme]

Posted by VolunteerGeneral:

Most of this thread has moved toward the Div.II schools. I had no intention when I started it to include Div. II schools. Hey guys they can recruit. Let`s limit this to Div. I schools. That is where the controversy lies.

 

Ela... my example is not a grey area. If a kid lives in the vicinity of Jackson, then he and is family are already well aware of the 3 private schools in town. It doesn`t take a suggestion to make someone aware that "hey there is a private school in town" Either the parents are interested or they are not. If the thought of attending a local private school has entered their mind, then it wouldn`t make any difference what I said. Even if they did visit the school, It wouldn`t be my decision if they were to choose to dish out the several thousands of dollars that it would cost them. Not only that, but their child would be subjected to an entrance exam before they would be accepted.

 

To All....What is recruiting? I hear it over and over. Private schools recruit. Would someone tell me how they do it?

 

Well...the specifics of the BA case, in my understanding are twofold:

 

1: The athletic department sent letters about the start of football practice to a couple of rising ninth graders who had taken the admissions test, and had stated that they intended to go to BA. The TSSAA ruled that since they were not enrolled (in the TSSAA's rule, had attended school for 3 days) there was a recruiting violation.

 

2: Coach Flatt sent some football game tickets to a middle school coach, who subsequently gave one or two to students. Giving the tickets to a coach is perfectly legal and happens all the time in both public and private schools. Giving them to prospective students is not legal. Since some kids ended up using some of the tickets, the TSSAA ruled that regardless of intent, the rule had been violated.

 

Ultimately, BA decided that the best legal case was to challenge the TSSAA's right to restrict free speech, as they were an organ of the state government. The whole Supreme Court case is about whether a state athletics association is considered as part of the government, or do they function as an independent body that can set whatever rules they want.

 

The recruiting rules are pretty vague overall, and clearly they are unevenly enforced.

[JaxMan]

General,

I think the term is anything that public school people can use to explain why excellence in another program beat them. If I am looking at several homes in Jackson and a realtor tells me which good public school zone a house is in, haven't they done the same thing as a parent mentioning a private school to another parent. Recruiting is when a school goes out and encourages a kid to attend...that rarely happens. It does happen though..both ways. Two years ago JCS lost a great baseball player to Germantown because they recruited him. Four years ago we lost a star girls basketball player to Northside, because they recruited her. Public schools need to clean up their side of the street before they complain about trash.

[jc147]

Hey ela, instead of being on coacht explaining recruiting and saying do away with recruiting and this and that..........go and try to figure out a game plan on how to beat the mighty purple tigers from watertown next time ...and the last time i checked they are not a private school

[Edited by jc147 on 9-30-02 9:54A]

[Chakra20]

Posted by pujo:

Private schools are a business, for them to succeed they have to sell a good product, in most cases education or possibly a good athletic program. All they need do, is hire a knowledgable football coach, word of mouth will take care of the rest. That is the best form of advertisement anyway. We all like to win, and if a private school takes a notion they want to have a winning footall program it is a lot easier and faster for them to build one then a small rural 1a public schools. Any school that could do this, private or public, if they were interested in winning would. The only difference a public school will get into trouble for it. Privates can reload every year, and most public schools have to wait for whatever comes along. People makes a big deal about how little the private schools coaches make, but I guarantee you they make more then the coaches at these small 1a public schools. The only small 1a public schools that have great coaching are the schools lucky enough to have a coach that is loyal to the school. Cloudland, Trousdale, Greenback, are such small schools, but most rural 1a coaches come and go. Another reason that the privates can get knowledgable coaches is the ease of caoching in private schools, compared to public schools. These schools have smart, coachable, teachable kids with parents who support them. In the public school system it's hard to keep the boys in shape over the summer because they have no control over them, and the parents don't have the time to worry with it, or just don't care. I won't call it recruiting, but it is an obvious advantage that we should not have to contend with as a small rural 1a public school. At least, a multiplier should be enforced, and then we'll get to hear from the 2a and 3a schools. Take for instance Boyd Buchanan, who the first two games of the season played two good 4a teams, and they won both games. This is fine for now, and they love the good competition until it gets play-off time then they really enjoy the 1a competition. Something is just not right, and I can see in the near future, maybe next year, when the scheduling takes place schools are going to quit playing them. The only schedules they'll be able to get is within their division, another private, or a really big school (but the big school may not want to risk getting beat, and refuse to play them as well). Are you'll so blind you can't see that everyone knows that the privates have advantages, and when you private supporters deny that fact it makes you look stupid. It's not your fault that they have advantages, it's just the way the system works, but be man enough to admit it. I have seen a few on here that can, but not many.

 

 

Pujo,

 

You make a great point that is easier for a private school to decide "we are gonna have a good sports program" than for a small public school. They have the kids that are availble, because mainly they have access to a much larger population, but its hard to understand that with all those kids they still dont have access to all these kids because of the constraints of education and finance on the parents of these kids.

 

For example, Ezell has two large billboards on Nashville INterstates. Is that recruiting? I know what it is it is advertising but what they are promoting is product awareness about the type of education in a christian enviroment and also reads " Oh yea we play a little ball to". Seems to me that is the school itself promoting what they do and noone said that was illegal. I can assure you also that the parents of the school are the best recruiters we have.

 

The only thing i really disagree with you is about the money these guys make. On average Public school teachers make a good bit more than private school teachers. Now as far as the coaching stipend im not sure about but they may get more there. Coaching is the whole differnce in my opinion.

 

You are right again they have to have a good coach. Lets take for example this years CPA team. They dont have any real all-stars(maybe a few on d) and they have arguably one of the toughest schedules in the state early and have came out of it 2-3. but come playoff time they will be right there with a chance to win every game because of the coaches they have.

If you do move the privates up with a multiplier guess what will happen. They will win there to, because the will adapt and Learn to win there. So all your doing is shifting the burden to antther group of coaches and thats not fair. So i have came up with the end alll be all of classification proposals that gives everyone what they want. And for me would set-up for some very interesting match-ups.

 

Division(Public) I

 

Public school's--A, AA, AAA--Only public schools

 

3 Classifcations according to size. Set up much the same way as the old class system was. Oranges to Oranges.

 

Division (Private)II

 

Private Schools--2 division B and BB--Only private schools.

 

All private school are here recruting or none recruiting. BB for recruiting B for non recruiting.

 

Super Prep Public and Private

 

What about this idea. This is for everyone that thinks they are a big dog. If your school wants to compete for the ultimate prize then you have to be entered into this league and the same time classifications are done. This way you get your Riverdale, BA, Maryville, MBA, Hillsboro, McCallie all in one division.

 

I dunno that other people think about it but from a fans perspective you get everything you want. You get your recruiters in there little corner at the same time cuttin down one division from there. You get all your publics in another corner so they are happy to be competeing against other schools with same situations as them. But cut down the number of division to make the championship mean more than we are better than the 40 other teams in our division.

 

The you have the granddaddy of them all. The super division where you take on all comers. If you think your school is good year in and year out and you want to compete against the other elite schools in tennessee heres your chance.

[Edited by Chakra20 on 9-30-02 10:53A]

 

[itzme]

What about this idea. This is for everyone that thinks they are a big dog. If your school wants to compete for the ultimate prize then you have to be entered into this league and the same time classifications are done. This way you get your Riverdale, BA, Maryville, MBA, Hillsboro, McCallie all in one division.

 

I dunno that other people think about it but from a fans perspective you get everything you want. You get your recruiters in there little corner at the same time cuttin down one division from there. You get all your publics in another corner so they are happy to be competeing against other schools with same situations as them. But cut down the number of division to make the championship mean more than we are better than the 40 other teams in our division.

 

The you have the granddaddy of them all. The super division where you take on all comers. If you think your school is good year in and year out and you want to compete against the other elite schools in tennessee heres your chance.

[Edited by Chakra20 on 9-30-02 10:53A]

 

Love the idea, I think it would be great for High School football, but it will never, ever, N-E-V-E-R happen, for the same reasons that forced the DII split initially.

[gobigred]

Quote from Pujo:

 

The only small 1a public schools that have great coaching are the schools lucky enough to have a coach that is loyal to the school. Cloudland, Trousdale, Greenback, are such small schools, but most rural 1a coaches come and go. Another reason that the privates can get knowledgable coaches is the ease of caoching in private schools, compared to public schools. These schools have smart, coachable, teachable kids with parents who support them. In the public school system it's hard to keep the boys in shape over the summer because they have no control over them, and the parents don't have the time to worry with it, or just don't care.

____________________________________________________________

 

It is surprising that the public 1A coaches, parents and other supporters aren't all over this unfortunate stereotyping by Pujo. His opinion is apparently that:

 

1. The majority of public 1A coaches are have no loyalty to their schools and are poor coaches.

 

2. The students and players at small rural schools are unintelligent, uncoachable, and uncontrollable.

 

3. Parents of these students don't care about their kids.

 

What a bunch of disgusting baloney. Regardless of your position on the issue, Pujo, please refrain from belittling others. You should be ashamed.

[Chakra20]

Posted by itzme:

What about this idea. This is for everyone that thinks they are a big dog. If your school wants to compete for the ultimate prize then you have to be entered into this league and the same time classifications are done. This way you get your Riverdale, BA, Maryville, MBA, Hillsboro, McCallie all in one division.

 

I dunno that other people think about it but from a fans perspective you get everything you want. You get your recruiters in there little corner at the same time cuttin down one division from there. You get all your publics in another corner so they are happy to be competeing against other schools with same situations as them. But cut down the number of division to make the championship mean more than we are better than the 40 other teams in our division.

 

The you have the granddaddy of them all. The super division where you take on all comers. If you think your school is good year in and year out and you want to compete against the other elite schools in tennessee heres your chance.

[Edited by Chakra20 on 9-30-02 10:53A]

 

Love the idea, I think it would be great for High School football, but it will never, ever, N-E-V-E-R happen, for the same reasons that forced the DII split initially.

 

Your probbaly right but hey wouldnt it be great.

[pujo]

You like realgoeagle twist things out of proportion.Not all public or private schools have good coaching .Public schools have good kids who are smart and have very concerned great parents,but at the same time they also have a class of kids who private schools would never dream of allowing in their schools.Public school supporters know exactly what I,m talking about.If there was no difference, there would be no private schools.