Is the split coming?

[1925Kee]

Kee you completely dodge open enrollment and magnet schools "unfair advantage" over public schools. Do they not get to pick "players"?? Seems to me they tend to be better than most schools in a variety of sports?

You must have me confused with someone else. I haven't even seen this argument made yet, never mind "dodge" it. Bottom line, I agree with you. Magnets and open enrollment schools should not be exempt from the discussion.

 

 

 

Kee you have a fairly utopian way of looking at sports. Too many comments about what you believe is "unfair." You complain about facilities, coaching, $$$, etc...

No. I am trying to make the point that a re-classification of schools would enhance competition. I amazed that so many people resist that. It's not whining about unfairness. It's directly recognizing reality and trying to build a system that reflects reality. If you think I'm whining because I want more classification, would you support elimination of ALL classification? AGAIN, should Maryville football play Sale Creek? Sheesh. So then how many classifications should there be? Could we add another layer? Stop freaking out and consider the possibility.

 

 

 

 

Also, the arguments that the TSSAA shouldn't split the privates or they will leave has been made for over 20 years. It simply will not happen. The last thing private schools want is to create another governing body to regulate athletics. Maybe a few go rogue and drop out but for a variety of reasons it's unlikely.

Again, you seem to have me confused. This comment is singing from MY hymnal. We agree.

 

 

Lastly, Kee you make assumptions about what private school parents want... Trophies and individual goals just aren't that important to us though.

Fair enough, but don't assume you know what motivates me or my circumstances either. They may not be all that different, afterall. However, and again, this has nothing to do with one man's personal experience. This is a general question that mostly affects small public schools.

 

In my opinion, soccer needs to grow as a sport in Tennessee. Not at the expense of football or other sports, but simply as another option for kids to play. Too many small high schools don't even have soccer. There are multiple reasons for that, no doubt, but among them is the difficulty of being competitive. If a small high school in Tennessee has a realistic shot at competing, then the program will grow. If they spend five years getting their butts handed to them the program will likely fold.

 

Small publics, especially rural ones, do not have the resources to compete with most privates, just as they don't have the resources to compete with AAA high schools.

 

Explain to me why that is so difficult to accept? And please don't use a AAA high school story as an example of how publics can compete.

[MoonDogRex]

Is the split coming? Yes, it is. Maybe not next year, but probably within the next five. When it does, it will have nothing to do with soccer, or perhaps even football -- it will have everything to do with autonomy. School heads and their boards will finally have had enough of the arcane TSSAA rules and will join together to create a private school association that better fits their collective needs.

 

Here is what will happen in soccer, and it really won't be much of a surprise. Current private schools that play in AA/A will be grouped into either the current DII AA or DII A based on their enrollments. It may be the case that three separate divisions based on enrollment size will be created within the private school structure. Football will be handled a bit differently (beyond simply the enrollment criteria) to take into consideration the competitive aspirations of those programs.

 

For all sports, this will certainly improve the current competitive environment in DII for both the current DII schools and the soon-to-be DII schools. It will also help schools in Knoxville and Chattanooga have more local "region" games.

Edited November 7, 2014 by MoonDogRex

[DIIA]

Alright, I'm going to weigh in here...

 

Full disclosure, I am an assistant soccer coach at an Class A/AA private school in the Nashville area.  We used to be in the metro district and are now in the "everything south of Old Hickory Blvd to the state line" district... probably narrows it down.

 

I published a report over the summer which analyzed TSSAA Division 1 results over the past 5 years, the previous 4 year classification period + 2013/14.  The report analyzed three aspects of the disparities in results of high school athletics in TSSAA D1 over that time period.

 

They were:

• Public - Private

• Combined Classes

• Metro (8 metro counties) - Rural (59 counties with only 1 or 2 schools) - Middle (everything else, 28 counties)

 

There were disparities in all three catagories.

 

TSSAA sponsors 19 sports.  Football is the only sport with 6 classes, the rest combine classes.

• 5 sports - Basketball B/G, Baseball, Softball, Volleyball each combine 2 football classes

• 11 sports - CC, Golf, Soccer, Tennis, Wrestling, Track combine 2 classes for AAA, and 4 classes for A/AA

• Bowling was not part of the report as there is only one class

 

Over the 5 year period, 55 state titles were awarded in the 1 combines sports.

50 went to AA schools and 5 went to A schools even though their participation is 50/50.

 

In the (5) 3 class sports (1A+2A=A, 3A+4A=AA, 5A+6A=AAA) the top level in each class (2A, 4A, 6A) comprised 72% of the final 8 teams in state, and 84% of the champions.

 

As this is a soccer discussion, there have been 22 titles awarded in this time period.  Knox (7), Hamilton (3), Davidson/Williamson (7), Shelby (3), totaling 20.  The other 2 came from Clarksville and Hendersonville, both of which are just outside of Nashville.  This means that 20 of the 22 state champions have come from 5 counties.  To put is straight, folks in rural areas - for the most part - don't play soccer.  Part of this is due to the fact that soccer is not as big farther out and there are very few clubs in these areas.

 

In AAA, of 88 state tournament teams - 7 have been 5A teams and 81 have been 6A

In A/AA, of 88 state tournament teams - 9 have been A (1A, 2A) teams and 79 have been AA (3A, 4A).

 

Of all sports, soccer has the most disparity among the combined classes and the public-private lines.

 

All of this is to say, that while there is a disparity in soccer amongst private-public, the combined classes is a far greater divide.

 

One recommendation of my report was for the TSSAA to reorganize into 4 classes for all sports except football.  Instead of the demarcation lines being 0-500, 500-1000, 1000+; they would be roughly 0-400 (A), 400-725 (AA), 725-1200 (AAA), and 1200+ (AAAA).

 

Present 3 class sports would become 4 classes and present 2 class sports of soccer and track would become 3 classes:  A/AA (0-725), AAA (725-1200), and AAAA (1200+).  The multiplier would be altered where private schools play up 1.5 classes, making privacte schools larger than 255 students play in AAA in a 4 class system as right now, the multiplier does NOTHING to schools playing in A/AA.

 

The whole point of this is that the biggest disparity in TSSAA athletics is in the combined classes.  I don't care what sport it is, but a school with 200 students is going to have a really hard time playing and competing against schools with 800-1000 kids.

 

You do this for the past fall season and CAK, CCS, ND, JC are in AAA, as are HF, Chester, and SH and are competing against schools with up to 1200 students. KC is in AAAA.  Anything with less than 725 students is in A/AA.

 

Hope this adds to the discussion and allows everyone some additional information to consider.

Edited November 8, 2014 by yAxis

[1925Kee]

Alright, I'm going to weigh in here...

 

Hope this adds to the discussion and allows everyone some additional information to consider.

Thanks for posting this. Very good information. In my opinion, it reinforces my own theory that additional classification is necessary and would make for much more appropriate competition.

 

I also believe adding this level of re-classification will serve to strengthen the sport, especially in smaller, rural areas.

[DIIA]

Thanks for posting this. Very good information. In my opinion, it reinforces my own theory that additional classification is necessary and would make for much more appropriate competition.

 

I also believe adding this level of re-classification will serve to strengthen the sport, especially in smaller, rural areas.

1925 -

 

I think you are right, on both counts.  A third classification would be great and it would open up more opportunities in the areas where soccer is not as prevalent as it is in the 4 metro areas.

 

JFW

[Lincoln19]

I'm late to the game here, but just wanted to very quickly add my thoughts.

 

I just read the entire thread. I spent alot of my free time this morning reading it, so now unfortunately I don't have the time to make a detailed reply. So... First, I've always been very on the fence about this subject. If I've leaned more one way or the other, it's been toward not splitting (reasons for this have been covered by many posters on this thread, I'm not going to rehash them now). With that being said, 1925kee has made some great points. Very convincing.

 

But by far the best post was by yaxis. I too have heard much talk about the 4 classification idea. I don't want to waste time repeating what yaxis said, I just want to say this particular idea seems easily the best solution. Those private schools who dominate A/AA will get some better competition without having to compete with 2,000+ enrollment schools. And the smaller public schools will have a realistic playing field. Seems to me the epitome of "happy medium". Right?

[Lincoln19]

Also. Big G, CHAMPS, and any others that this could be directed toward: why don't you all make some legit points? Or just refrain from posting altogether? Every time I see one of these threads I see the same names posting sarcastic things like "blah blah blah, here we go again, public school people whining, etc". These dumb posts become very tired.

 

Oh, and I realize you all have probably made legit replies years ago, but this is an ongoing debate and one that I believe is actually going to end in some changes soon - one way or another. Your sarcastic posts suggest that you all just want the issue swept under the rug so you can get back to dominating A/AA (from whichever private school you choose to do this from).

Edited November 9, 2014 by Lincoln19

[Playerscoach]

Three separate divisions for private schools will happen. Leaving the TSSAA won't happen either. The private schools don't want to govern themselves one iota.

 

Two private school headmasters have said this to me since Wednesday. One of which is at the biggest of the big dogs.

[BigG]

Also. Big G, CHAMPS, and any others that this could be directed toward: why don't you all make some legit points? Or just refrain from posting altogether? Every time I see one of these threads I see the same names posting sarcastic things like "blah blah blah, here we go again, public school people whining, etc". These dumb posts become very tired.

 

Oh, and I realize you all have probably made legit replies years ago, but this is an ongoing debate and one that I believe is actually going to end in some changes soon - one way or another. Your sarcastic posts suggest that you all just want the issue swept under the rug so you can get back to dominating A/AA (from whichever private school you choose to do this from).

 

 

Because we HAVE made some legit points starting back as far as 2004.  We spend hours and hours debating possibilities and suggestions.  But what it boils down to is "this is unfair"  

 

So... then we split privates and publics.  Makes it more fair.

 

Then it turns into "rural and urban"  well, that's not fair, so

 

then it turns into "open zoned and closed zoned"well, that's not fair, so

 

then it turns into "those with facilities and those without" well that's not fair so...

 

Now we have 20 classification, and then within those classifications, we have multiple size divisions.

 

And for the record (of which you could find if you did research over the last 10 years we have "debated" this), I am not against a split.  I'm not against playing up.  Put us where we are supposed to be and we will work our hardest to compete.  And if we can't compete, we will work harder until we can.  

 

My suggestion over the years was a "merit based classification" based on success and sizes of school  Works like the champions league.  State champions move up a division (just like in state league club).  Bottom teams move down a division.  

 

And it isn't a perfect solutions.  I would have no idea how to implement it, but I think it COULD work.

 

Hopefully that is what you are looking for, Lincoln.

 

 

 

HOWEVER, no on from either side has convinced ANYONE from the other side of a solution.  

[Lincoln19]

Yes. Thank you. I didn't feel like researching from years past.

 

And of course there is no solution that will please everyone. I feel like lots of folks are saying that over and over. That is really stating the obvious. But, there does seem to be plenty of evidence that suggests there should be some kind of change. Your champions league thing sounds awesome btw.

[ridges82]

This maybe should be a new thread, but I'm just going to post this here...

 

The new TSSAA football regions were posted today. I know this only applies to football right now. But, I noticed several teams moving to new classifications.  I wonder how much of this will stick in two years - like if they did NOT split public and private.

 

For Division I:

1A and 2A football = A soccer

3A and 4A football = AA soccer

5A and 6A football = AAA soccer

 

Is this correct?

[kazam37]

BigG......speaks from experience.  He has argued his points out for years and I really believe he feels his points are valid.  Are they....? CAK has won how many State Championships?  Boys and Girls combined?  We had our strongest side ever up here and got blanked by KC and CAK  In our district CAK and KC have won every district championship they competed in......we just can't jump their hurdle. 

 

Kaz