This is the second time...

[TheEgoHasLanded]

Baldcoach,

 

What do you estimate is the day to day expenses your school incurrs? Just from janitors salaries, to electricity, to printing paper, to supplies, to heating and air conditioning, rent etc?

 

I had heard that my school is close to 1000 every day! No wonder we are building a new school!

[Tacoma]

What other reason could be behind the demand for change? I accept that many of the proponents of change are after a more competitive division of the schools. If so then they should all be for a merit system. Such a system would move schools to a competitive level regardless of whether they are public, private, magnet, open zoned, rural, metro etc. And such a system would make sure that no team dominated a division for more than a couple of years before it moved up.

 

Finally, I would submit that we are all 'similar' schools. We all have 14 - 18 year old high-school students. We all struggle with some aspects of athletics (money, facilities, discipline, coaching, support, etc.) and excell at other aspects. Some private schools are really good...some open zoned schools are really good...some rural schools are really good...and some of each of those categories are average or really bad. Surely we can find a better way to help our kids compete than to single out this or that category of school and punish them. If we can't just accept that there will always be advantages for some schools and play together anyway then let's go to a merit system...let everyone fall where they may and let's let all the fussin' and fightin' go away.

 

PHEW! What a book!

 

Baldcoach,

 

Thanks for the reply. I would agree that the only reason this is an issue is because the private schools are winning a lot.

 

My only complaint about the merit system is the fact that a school gets lucky and gets one of those "once in a lifetime athletes" that changes a program overnight. They win for two years, he graduates, and then the program is bumped to a higher category. Without that individual the program cannot compete at the higher level. In fact, they can't even compete in the lower level. This would make it hard on a coach to build a continually successful program.

 

One outstanding player can totally change a single A program. At that level he is expected to play offense, defense and special teams. He can totally affect the game as one individual.

 

I guess I would disagree about the "similar" school issue. A private school can select their students. Generally a child sent to a private school has family support behind him or her. They wouldn't spend the extra money if they didn't truly care about them. These involved parents do everything they can to make sure the child succeeds.

 

Many of the athletes I see in the public school are doing it without parental support. Many of these parents don't even watch them play a game. They may not see one game their child plays in during an entire year. The child is responsible for their own transportation and to purchase their own gear. Athletics is used as a babysitter for their children.

 

The only advantage to a public school that I see is that it is free. It may or may not be closer to the child than a private school.

 

I guess I don't see not being able to compete with public schools in the playoffs as punishment. Maybe putting them in DII is not the option. How about a playoff with DI privates?

 

There is my book right back at you. Even though we have a difference of opinion concerning this, I have enjoyed this dialogue with you. Too many of these threads have turned personal. I hope we can continue to discuss this. Maybe one of us will change our mind.

[lazarus]

"My only complaint about the merit system is the fact that a school gets lucky and gets one of those "once in a lifetime athletes" that changes a program overnight."

 

actually, there is an easy way around that. one needs an appeal system. i know that will work, because i was once in a state that had a rule that any private winning consecutive championships was automatically bumped up, except if they appealed (and it was approved). while i was there a private in the smallest class won their second championship in basketball, and appealed because they had one player that made all the difference and was a senior. the public schools approved the appeal and the team was allowed to stay in the smallest class.

but they had a number of privates voluntarily playing up, and it made a big difference in how the two types of schools interacted.

[ELA]

Gentlemen... there will not be a merit system. The Virginia Plan will be voted into place in June and the only real question is if they add the multiplier for purposes of classification. The multiplier that Mr. Carter has discussed is a combination of urban (1.25)/rural (.8) and private (2.0).

[pujo]

That's good news Ela, the merit system is stupid, we don't need to move people up because they are good. We need to move the schools up that have advantages.

[Antwan]

That's good news Ela, the merit system is stupid, we don't need to move people up because they are good. We need to move the schools up that have advantages.

Ditto

[GWAVE1]

ELA, why do you think that we will get the Virginia Plan? Is it just because Carter wants it and so we will get it whether the rest of the schools want it or not? Will their not be a vote of some kind?

 

What effects are your school reaping from such a move? You coach at East Ridge or Chatt. Central right?

[Baldcoach]

Baldcoach,

 

What do you estimate is the day to day expenses your school incurrs? Just from janitors salaries, to electricity, to printing paper, to supplies, to heating and air conditioning, rent etc?

 

I had heard that my school is close to 1000 every day! No wonder we are building a new school!

 

The last numbers I saw had the operating budget in the several million per year range but that was years ago and included staff salaries. I haven't a clue what it is now.

 

I do know that at least when I was teaching we ran a deficit budget every year and counted on donations to make up the difference. With 900 students preK - 12 paying around 3500 apiece (mid 90's...tuition is more now) the tuition figure is 3 million and change, so the budget was more than that. I can only assume it is higher now.

[Baldcoach]

Gentlemen... there will not be a merit system. The Virginia Plan will be voted into place in June and the only real question is if they add the multiplier for purposes of classification. The multiplier that Mr. Carter has discussed is a combination of urban (1.25)/rural (.8) and private (2.0).

 

ELA,

 

If I read this correctly then there is actually a larger multiplier on the privates than 2.0. If rural schools are given a .8 then the actual difference between the 1a public schools (except poor Lookout Valley, who will get a 1.25) and the 1a privates will be more like 2.5 or so (an estimate...the actual figure will vary a bit based on the sizes of the schools). Am I correct in this?

 

I arrived at the figure using 2 250 student schools. The rural school would effectively have a 200 person population. The private would effectively have a 500 person population. Thus, in relation to each other the private school has actually been given a 2.5 modifier, not a 2.0.

 

If all schools are modified then who is the baseline? I thought the rural schools were going to be the base? Now we are saying they aren't and moving them in a negative direction? Why not just add a bigger multiplier to the other 2? Is it because the TSSAA is afraid adding a bigger multiplier would make all the urban and privates balk?

[Baldcoach]

That's good news Ela, the merit system is stupid, we don't need to move people up because they are good. We need to move the schools up that have advantages.

 

Very good Pujo...it is stupid...good reasoning there.

 

I did like the part about not moving up schools that are good. I agree totally with that. But be honest...don't try to hide it...by "schools that have advantages" you mean the privates because they have gotten good. Oops, there goes the good argument. Guess we are left with just move up the privates...figures. That's fair...not.

[Baldcoach]

I guess I would disagree about the "similar" school issue. A private school can select their students. Generally a child sent to a private school has family support behind him or her. They wouldn't spend the extra money if they didn't truly care about them. These involved parents do everything they can to make sure the child succeeds.

 

Many of the athletes I see in the public school are doing it without parental support. Many of these parents don't even watch them play a game. They may not see one game their child plays in during an entire year. The child is responsible for their own transportation and to purchase their own gear. Athletics is used as a babysitter for their children.

 

The only advantage to a public school that I see is that it is free. It may or may not be closer to the child than a private school.

 

I guess I don't see not being able to compete with public schools in the playoffs as punishment. Maybe putting them in DII is not the option. How about a playoff with DI privates?

 

There is my book right back at you. Even though we have a difference of opinion concerning this, I have enjoyed this dialogue with you. Too many of these threads have turned personal. I hope we can continue to discuss this. Maybe one of us will change our mind.

 

Tacoma,

 

You are right that privates can pick students. But the assumption behind that is where we probably disagree. Privates don't pick students based on athletic ability. In fact, I know of no private school where the coaches are even consulted in the process. Thus i agree with the thought that privates get to select students but I disagree with the assumption that that selection results in a lot of better atheletes being in the school. In fact, just the opposite. Most private schools select for academic or spiritual reasons, not athletic.

 

So in my book that is one disadvantage that privates have...one advantage that you mention is involvement. In general parents are very involved at privates and they expect their children to achieve. This certainly is an advantage over the average public school but not over all of them. Many of the same small rural public schools that are complaining have just as much involvement from families and communities as the privates do...it is really the big metro schools that are at a disadvantage here.

 

I would be ok with playoffs just between the div1 privates, except that we already have 8 state championships and that would make 9...I think that is getting crazy. I figure it this way...there are 50 states in America and only a couple of them split privates and publics. Texas I know does BUT they have been pretty much seperate from the start and this year 2 privates sued to get in the public conference and won. All the other states manage to play together somehow...some have multipliers, some have tiered systems, most just play.

 

The privates didn't whine about public advantages when they got whipped for 25 years. Why are the publics whining now that a few privates have handed it to them for 5? Let's be honest, if you take the top 5 private schools out of the equation it is still a public dominated game. So 5 privates are currently better than everyone. 10 years ago 15 publics were. I submit that this is all sour grapes run amok. It's a witch hunt and an attitude that is pure poison. The angry schools won't be happy with any solution as long as they don't win...and they won't win until they quit being angry about others and take care of themselves.

 

I have enjoyed our dialogue too...we don't have to agree...my Dad and I don't agree a lot but I still like talking to him.

 

Book 2 ends here...stay tuned for the trilogy

[Tacoma]

Tacoma,

 

You are right that privates can pick students. But the assumption behind that is where we probably disagree. Privates don't pick students based on athletic ability. In fact, I know of no private school where the coaches are even consulted in the process. Thus i agree with the thought that privates get to select students but I disagree with the assumption that that selection results in a lot of better atheletes being in the school. In fact, just the opposite. Most private schools select for academic or spiritual reasons, not athletic.

 

So in my book that is one disadvantage that privates have...one advantage that you mention is involvement. In general parents are very involved at privates and they expect their children to achieve. This certainly is an advantage over the average public school but not over all of them. Many of the same small rural public schools that are complaining have just as much involvement from families and communities as the privates do...it is really the big metro schools that are at a disadvantage here.

 

I would be ok with playoffs just between the div1 privates, except that we already have 8 state championships and that would make 9...I think that is getting crazy. I figure it this way...there are 50 states in America and only a couple of them split privates and publics. Texas I know does BUT they have been pretty much seperate from the start and this year 2 privates sued to get in the public conference and won. All the other states manage to play together somehow...some have multipliers, some have tiered systems, most just play.

 

The privates didn't whine about public advantages when they got whipped for 25 years. Why are the publics whining now that a few privates have handed it to them for 5? Let's be honest, if you take the top 5 private schools out of the equation it is still a public dominated game. So 5 privates are currently better than everyone. 10 years ago 15 publics were. I submit that this is all sour grapes run amok. It's a witch hunt and an attitude that is pure poison. The angry schools won't be happy with any solution as long as they don't win...and they won't win until they quit being angry about others and take care of themselves.

 

I have enjoyed our dialogue too...we don't have to agree...my Dad and I don't agree a lot but I still like talking to him.

 

Book 2 ends here...stay tuned for the trilogy

I'm sorry if you thought I was referring to choosing their students based on athletic ability. Even though I am sure that has happened, I was thinking of how the schools select all-around good kids with good parents. These children are easier to educate in the classroom and to coach on the athletic field. Parental support is invaluable in all aspects of the education process. It cannot be replaced. I agree that we generally look at urban schools as having this problem. It also exits in some rural schools. Maybe it is because too much inbreeding. Hey I'm right in the middle of it so I can say that.

 

Having 9 championships doesn't bother me. It would just reward another team. I don't believe it is watered down at all. Presently the DII programs can win a championship without a long playoff process. I don't think they aren't worthy of their title. They just were the best in the classification they were assigned to before the season began.

 

Maybe once the trilogy is concluded, we can sell the movie rights. I could be played by Tom Hanks!