New regions are out

[BayouBear]

If you did not use the pull thru for the loser of a match, then how would you do it? 

 

Seems to me that if you lose a match that "you were suppose to win" ala Speroff, then you really risk a lot by not being up to the task in that one match.  That is actually, in my opinion, what makes the tournament more interesting.  To secure your "rightful" stand on the medal podium, you must be up to the task in those three days.

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Sure..I agree with that. But Speroff may have been the 3rd or 4th best kid in bracket. The Individual Tournament is set up to find the Top 6 wrestlers at each weight but in a 32 Man "Follow your man" bracket, 12 wrestlers never get the opportunity to see if they are one of those 6. RC says the bracket placement is random. If so, then it comes down to luck if you land in a favorable or unfavorable spot in the bracket. Wrestling should not be decided by luck.

 

The reality is that some kids are simply not good enough to be Champion. However, kids go home every year that are good enough to place.

[texas23]

Sure..I agree with that. But Speroff may have been the 3rd or 4th best kid in bracket. The Individual Tournament is set up to find the Top 6 wrestlers at each weight but in a 32 Man "Follow your man" bracket, 12 wrestlers never get the opportunity to see if they are one of those 6. RC says the bracket placement is random. If so, then it comes down to luck if you land in a favorable or unfavorable spot in the bracket. Wrestling should not be decided by luck.

 

The reality is that some kids are simply not good enough to be Champion. However, kids go home every year that are good enough to place.

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I agree with your premise. But do you believe that Speroff should have won that OT match? If so, then he let himself down by not taking care of business that match. No luck involved if you believe he was beaten by a better wrestler. No luck involved if he did not wrestle up to his potential, either. Cordell won all the way thru, so Speroff needed to get to him to meet his potential.

 

The random draw does present some issues, like you state. How would you fix that?

[BayouBear]

I agree with your premise.  But do you believe that Speroff should have won that OT match?  If so, then he let himself down by not taking care of business that match.  No luck involved if you believe he was beaten by a better wrestler.  No luck involved if he did not wrestle up to his potential, either.  Cordell won all the way thru, so Speroff needed to get to him to meet his potential.

 

The random draw does present some issues, like you state.  How would you fix that?

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Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying Fuller wasn't deserving of his victory over Speroff because I think he was. But they were both in Cordell's side of the bracket and that in itself was based on the fact that Ibrahim was also in the bracket as a returning state champ which was also somewhat unlucky.

 

For arguement sake...Accept that Shawn Speroff was the 4th best wrestler in the bracket and the wrestler he lost to was the 3rd best wrestler and the wrestler he lost to was the best kid in the bracket...Then Speroff does not get the opportunity to wrestle in the consolation under the current method.

 

To your question; there are no solutions to the random placement. I atually think it is the most fair way to do it. However, in doing so the brackets become loaded in spots which makes it completely unfair to those kids that are competing for the 3rd thru 6th spots. If all losers went to the consolations they would have the opportunity to "wrestle to their potential" as you say.

[CoachBray]

Bayou Bear,

You hit the nail on the head!!! A lot of good wrestlers have fallen by the wayside because of the piggy back tournament. The solution? Make it double elimination. We start on Thursday anyway. Why not start at 8am instead of 4pm?

[silverpie]

Bayou Bear,

  You hit the nail on the head!!!  A lot of good wrestlers have fallen by the wayside because of the piggy back tournament.  The solution?  Make it double elimination.  We start on Thursday anyway.  Why not start at 8am instead of 4pm?

 

Would that be enough time to fit in the equivalent of another entire first round? That's the number of matches you're adding.

 

Oh, and something else I notice--with so many regions right at 11 or 12 teams, you will almost have to go to two-day regionals--with only one day, 10 is the most you can have in a full double-elimination bracket without risking forcing a kid to forfeit the bronze medal match due to the five-bout rule (not as bad before, but an utterly unacceptable possibility now that 4th place stays home).

[nywrestler]

I think you give Speroff a little more credit than he deserves. The 119 bracket was weighted heavily on Cordell's side of the bracket. I do agree that it is unfortunate for a wrestler to come to state only to have one chance to wrestle. Anyone could loose because of a bad move or injury. Next year placement in the brackets may make more of an impact with the north Nashville and the Southern districts being as weak as they will be.

[CoachDelgado]

I think you give Speroff a little more credit than he deserves.

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Speroff is a quality wrestler. He placed as a sophomore. So is Fuller. So is Cordell. The reality going into last year's tournament is that we knew that unless Fuller or Speroff could beat Cordell, then 1 of them would go home without a medal. This is the game we play every year as soon as the brackets come out. I remember seeing that one and saying to Walt that Speroff or Fuller got a bad draw. I knew one of them would leave without hardware even thought they were both deserving. That is the problem with a carry tournament. It does reveal who the true champion of that division is, and that is the only thing that is correct. The remaining places are earned by a placing opposite the champ for the runner up, then the carry for 3rd - 6th could possibly have some better wrestlers eliminated.

[Sommers]

Coach Gonyea hasn't joined in as of yet, and he may not. This carry tournament killed a silver or bronze medal for Smyrna in the last few years due to these terrible draws and then to have RC go back in there after the brackets are released and change things around makes it even worse.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if the double elimination tourney was openly ruled out by RC long ago and now he can't back off that position I'm guessing.

[ooooo]

This is like California. Where each section takes a different number of teams. Except in California the criteria is based on how many wrestlers from your section placed at state. The more medalists at state the more qualifiers from your section. Sliverpie that zone is nothing like the southern section in California because the Southern section contains all of San Bernadino county which is probably as big as middle and east TN combined. It also contains orange and Riverside Counties as well. This section takes the top 8 to state while certain sections like the Los Angeles Section or the Oakland Section take the top 2 and San Diego and a few others take the top 3. Also keep in mind there are probably more schools in the Southern Section than in the entire state of Tennessee. As for me I like the idea of top 3 from each region because it makes the wrestler work to get to state more. I have seen in too many instances where a wrestler setteled for 4th in regions because he knew he was already going to state.

[CoachDelgado]

There are also instances where 4th place wrestlers defeat region champs in the first round of the state. Ryan Cullen of Collierville has placed 4th in the region the past two years. What did he do next? 2 years in a row he has won his first round match at the state tourney against region champs. As coach Bray mentioned earlier, Jonas Gibbs was 4th in region 8 at 119. He was behind Chris Baker - 3rd in state, Shawn Speroff - returning state placer and Andy Groves - currently ranked in the state rankings. It is not that Jonas was pitiful and didn't work hard to get to state. He was in the toughest weight class in the region. How did he respond? He beat a region champ the next week in the first round of the state. Fourth placers are legitimate and important for the state. Many years ago Rodney Reese of Howard was 4th in his region and a state champ. It is possible and kids should have the opportunity. Middle Tennessee as a whole is benefitting while other areas of the state are losing out. They gain more qualifiers with 5 regions while 4 of the 5 remaining regions lose a qualifier per weight class.

Edited November 19, 2004 by CoachDelgado

[KCHSCoach]

It needs to go back with district tournaments with top 4 going to a region and top 4 from region to state, use a 16 man bracket. Oh and put everyone back together.

[BayouBear]

Another very important point.

 

If the "Extra" Qualifier is to be determined by the number of returning medalist, I would say elimination of the current "Follow Your Man" bracket becomes a mandatory issue. The bracket format MUST allow the best 6 wrestlers the opportunity to medal, thereby making the determination of the Extra Qualifier Region as fair as possible.

 

Switching to Returning Qualifiers instead of Returning Medalist is not the answer. That gives the regions sending four Qualifiers too much of an advantage in terms of numbers and does nothing to help the regions with the higher number of good wrestlers.

 

If the TSSAA really wanted to make this as fair as possible, they would change the bracket to a full Double Elimination Bracket and the determine the Extra Qualifier by counting the number of matches won by returning wrestlers.