Question for 1A fans that want a split

[Baldcoach]

Name 1.....standard response... I don't have access to the records, you

 

probably don't either....anyone that thinks they don't do this is very naive.

 

This year alone, if you read the Temple thread after their loss, stated by

 

their sports director, when asked about the team for 2007, :We have a dozen

 

transfers coming in". FCS, on their website states they have students from

 

9 counties.

 

If you can look at the schools of this size/enrollment, compared to the ratio

 

of football players compared to public schools like TC, G'ville, W'town, etc.

 

and tell people with a straight face there isn't some "bringing in" going on

 

here, you are a better storyteller than me.

 

You guys can make your same old argument as long as you like, but it's

 

so obvious it's ridiculous.

 

 

 

I don't recall mentioning race. I referred to putting publics in their division &

 

privates in theirs. I have yet to hear a good reason why privates even want

 

to play public.

 

 

 

Lastly, I don't have to ask my coach why he hates privates. I don't know

 

that he does "hate" privates. He dislikes playing them for the same reasons

 

everyone else does. If you read this thread, you have figured out I am not alone

 

here. The playing field is not level, no secret, tho denied.

 

True, Clint & TC has had more than their share of wins vs privates. FCS won

 

this yr. for the first time in a couple of decades....no fear element here...just

 

unfair advantage.

 

 

 

One more thing....publics haven't "suddenly" came to not wanting to play

 

privates......maybe this is new to you.....been that way for years.

 

 

Let me paraphrase this argument...

 

I have no proof or evidence but I KNOW that the privates cheat and so do you...if you don't you are either lying or stupid. And even though our team usually beats them WE don't cheat, we just work harder and have better coaching. Why, because we are public and publics don't cheat, they are privates and EVERYONE knows they cheat.

 

Wow...great argument. Circles within circles.

 

Fact is, I HAVE seen the records...or at least some of them. And so have many posters on these boards. We keep telling you that there aren't kids being "brought in" in the sense that they are being recruited for athletics...small christian schools don't have the time or the money to recruit athletes. Further, it just isn't our mission. Our mission is to provide a good education in a Christ centered environment...athletics is very secondary. But I understand where you are coming from...you assume we are doing what you would be doing in our place...sorry, it just isn't happening. It is the whole plank and splinter thing combined with the green eyed monster.

[Indian]

But the small private that has 300 is playing publics with 5 or 600...so how is it still unfair for the public? Are you implying that half the kids in public schools are completely useless?? I find that hard to believe. And, since NO other state has a 1.8 multiplier, I would say that the people who do believe that half (or 40% which is what the multiplier implies) of public school kids are no good are the ones fooling themselves. Personally, I believe that there are kids who are not gonna participate no matter what school they go to...know some of them....but half??? Come on.

 

 

As far as trying out for sports, yes, at least half would never even give it a shot. Football is most often discussed here but look at girls basketball. As good as the program at Sequatchie has become, they had 2 seniors two years ago, none last year, have 2 this year and will have 2 next year if both stick it out. That's six seniors in four years. The group that's seniors this year had 8 8th graders on their team then. The main reason is it's too much hard work, and too many hours are required that most girls here don't want to put in. They have an outstanding sophomore group, with 8 total and at least 5 good to very good players, but that's the exception especially in the numbers. The freshman total? Two.

[Grunt]

 

 

Let me paraphrase this argument...

 

I have no proof or evidence but I KNOW that the privates cheat and so do you...if you don't you are either lying or stupid. And even though our team usually beats them WE don't cheat, we just work harder and have better coaching. Why, because we are public and publics don't cheat, they are privates and EVERYONE knows they cheat.

 

Wow...great argument. Circles within circles.

 

Fact is, I HAVE seen the records...or at least some of them. And so have many posters on these boards. We keep telling you that there aren't kids being "brought in" in the sense that they are being recruited for athletics...small christian schools don't have the time or the money to recruit athletes. Further, it just isn't our mission. Our mission is to provide a good education in a Christ centered environment...athletics is very secondary. But I understand where you are coming from...you assume we are doing what you would be doing in our place...sorry, it just isn't happening. It is the whole plank and splinter thing combined with the green eyed monster.

 

 

So, you're going to have folks believe if 2 kids come to your school; one has

an ambition to study Eng. Lit; the other is 6'4" , 230 lbs. excellent athlete,

probably the next Reggie Bush; he's not going to get the nod? Athletics

very secondary. 30,000 comedians out of work, & you're trying to be funny.

The records will only reflect the kids in school, not the ones eliminated by

a selection process.

[pujo]

But the small private that has 300 is playing publics with 5 or 600...so how is it still unfair for the public? Are you implying that half the kids in public schools are completely useless?? I find that hard to believe. And, since NO other state has a 1.8 multiplier, I would say that the people who do believe that half (or 40% which is what the multiplier implies) of public school kids are no good are the ones fooling themselves. Personally, I believe that there are kids who are not gonna participate no matter what school they go to...know some of them....but half??? Come on.

Here are some real numbers, Trousdale with around 400 students ,dresses about 30 players, Friendship with ,around 230 dressed around 43. Whats wrong with the picture.

[pujo]

Let me paraphrase this argument...

 

I have no proof or evidence but I KNOW that the privates cheat and so do you...if you don't you are either lying or stupid. And even though our team usually beats them WE don't cheat, we just work harder and have better coaching. Why, because we are public and publics don't cheat, they are privates and EVERYONE knows they cheat.

 

Wow...great argument. Circles within circles.

 

Fact is, I HAVE seen the records...or at least some of them. And so have many posters on these boards. We keep telling you that there aren't kids being "brought in" in the sense that they are being recruited for athletics...small christian schools don't have the time or the money to recruit athletes. Further, it just isn't our mission. Our mission is to provide a good education in a Christ centered environment...athletics is very secondary. But I understand where you are coming from...you assume we are doing what you would be doing in our place...sorry, it just isn't happening. It is the whole plank and splinter thing combined with the green eyed monster.

Baldcoach, if atheletics is soooooo secondary, why in the heck do you care who or where they play.

[Baldcoach]

Baldcoach, if atheletics is soooooo secondary, why in the heck do you care who or where they play.

 

Nice segue Pujo,

 

This is gonna be hard for you to hear, since your assumption is obviously that the small privates all recruit and try their best to dominate athletically, but it is less about who we play than about fair play. We are members in good standing with the TSSAA and have been since the beginning...suddenly we are singled out and punished, and for what? For being good? Why? Simply because we are privates. The publics who are good (and they are MUCH more dominating and MUCH better than any of us) are lauded as wonderful because they are good. Why the sudden double standard? And why aren't the dominating publics hit with a multiplier?

 

I'll tell you why... it's prejudice by people who make unfairness claims. Now, if some small, rural public who was getting pummelled every year had claimed foul about the privates it wouldn't seem so hypocritical, but when the historically most successful 1a program in the state complains because they can't dominate everyone every year I have a big problem. The truth of the matter is there are as many really good publics as privates, and in every division the elite publics are just plain better.

 

Here is something else to chew on...statistically the publics have as many or more 'athletes' (those that are capable of playing college ball) as the small privates...and something else to ponder...the coaches at the small privates have 0 say in who gets in. How, then, do they 'recruit' the best athletes. Once again you spout stuff that you have no idea about, but I'll behappy to pick up on any of those topics and enlighten you.

[Grunt]

 

 

But the small private that has 300 is playing publics with 5 or 600...so how is it still unfair for the public? Are you implying that half the kids in public schools are completely useless?? I find that hard to believe. And, since NO other state has a 1.8 multiplier, I would say that the people who do believe that half (or 40% which is what the multiplier implies) of public school kids are no good are the ones fooling themselves. Personally, I believe that there are kids who are not gonna participate no matter what school they go to...know some of them....but half??? Come on.

 

 

FCS 249

TC 390

Watertown 277

Red Blg. Spr. 199

Clay 256

Gord'ville 302

Monterey 349

Mt. Jul. Chr. 199

 

TSSAA figures........where's the 5 to 600?

[Baldcoach]

FCS 249

TC 390

Watertown 277

Red Blg. Spr. 199

Clay 256

Gord'ville 302

Monterey 349

Mt. Jul. Chr. 199

 

TSSAA figures........where's the 5 to 600?

 

 

Grunt,

 

The multiplier is 1.8, so a 300 person private is classed based on a population of 540...putting them squarely in 2a. That is what I was talking about.

 

If you are talking about FCS or Mt. JCS they are obviously not 300 person privates. FCS would be classified as 439 or so which would put them on the 'bubble' of 1a and 2a (but I'm betting they will move up next reclassification), Mt. Juliet would be classified as 359.

 

But let's use the figures given. TC is about 55% larger than Friendship. How is that an 'unfair' advantage for FCS given Pujo's argument? Is he claiming that a full third of the kids at TC are completely useless and that 100% of FCS's kids contribute in a big way? His numbers just don't work...unless there is an underlying assumption that FCS is cheating...which is exactly where Pujo is trying to lead us, he just doesn't wanna admit it.

[Grunt]

 

 

Grunt,

 

The multiplier is 1.8, so a 300 person private is classed based on a population of 540...putting them squarely in 2a. That is what I was talking about.

 

If you are talking about FCS or Mt. JCS they are obviously not 300 person privates. FCS would be classified as 439 or so which would put them on the 'bubble' of 1a and 2a (but I'm betting they will move up next reclassification), Mt. Juliet would be classified as 359.

 

But let's use the figures given. TC is about 55% larger than Friendship. How is that an 'unfair' advantage for FCS given Pujo's argument? Is he claiming that a full third of the kids at TC are completely useless and that 100% of FCS's kids contribute in a big way? His numbers just don't work...unless there is an underlying assumption that FCS is cheating...which is exactly where Pujo is trying to lead us, he just doesn't wanna admit it.

 

 

Ok, but here's another thing wiht the numbers, you probably saw this as did

I. The Tennessean ran an article re: pub/prv. stating that the ratio of players

to students in privates were much higher vs publics. Don't recall the exact #,

but think 65 - 70% for privates. Whatever the exact # was, it was way off balance.

Even you have to admit, this doesn't happen by luck, or the boys in public

don't give a rip. This is where the selective admission argument kicks in, and

it certainly has a strange look to it. With selective admission, the multiplier is

ineffective, as a school can simply regulate the # of students vs athletes

admitted to stay within the classification.

The only way to fix this is private/public full split. Let each do whatever they like.

As far as publics that allow outside students in for a fee, put them in with the privates, I see no difference here.

[Green_Acres]

Ok, but here's another thing wiht the numbers, you probably saw this as did

I. The Tennessean ran an article re: pub/prv. stating that the ratio of players

to students in privates were much higher vs publics. Don't recall the exact #,

but think 65 - 70% for privates. Whatever the exact # was, it was way off balance.

Even you have to admit, this doesn't happen by luck, or the boys in public

don't give a rip. This is where the selective admission argument kicks in, and

it certainly has a strange look to it. With selective admission, the multiplier is

ineffective, as a school can simply regulate the # of students vs athletes

admitted to stay within the classification.

The only way to fix this is private/public full split. Let each do whatever they like.

As far as publics that allow outside students in for a fee, put them in with the privates, I see no difference here.

 

Would it be because the publics offer more options than privates? Maybe the reason for the higher participation is related in some way to the fact that privates pay for their education and therefore value participation, performance, and involvement. They say you normally put more value on something that you pay for rather then something that is given. Is is just that Christians tend to be "gatherers" or "recruiters" anyway. They are always inviting to church, Sunday school, Bible study, fellowship, etc.

 

Some coaches do not like to encourage players to come out for the team if they are not athletes. Is there something in the very basic nature of Christianity that makes a difference in the touted success of Christian privates?

[pujo]

Grunt,

 

The multiplier is 1.8, so a 300 person private is classed based on a population of 540...putting them squarely in 2a. That is what I was talking about.

 

If you are talking about FCS or Mt. JCS they are obviously not 300 person privates. FCS would be classified as 439 or so which would put them on the 'bubble' of 1a and 2a (but I'm betting they will move up next reclassification), Mt. Juliet would be classified as 359.

 

But let's use the figures given. TC is about 55% larger than Friendship. How is that an 'unfair' advantage for FCS given Pujo's argument? Is he claiming that a full third of the kids at TC are completely useless and that 100% of FCS's kids contribute in a big way? His numbers just don't work...unless there is an underlying assumption that FCS is cheating...which is exactly where Pujo is trying to lead us, he just doesn't wanna admit it.

Baldcoach ,is the only way you can debate is change everything I say.I never once said the private schools recruit all the good atheletes,or anything else you say . Better read my post a little better,are you a nut or what. I think you are replying to what you think I might say.

[Grunt]

 

Would it be because the publics offer more options than privates? Maybe the reason for the higher participation is related in some way to the fact that privates pay for their education and therefore value participation, performance, and involvement. They say you normally put more value on something that you pay for rather then something that is given. Is is just that Christians tend to be "gatherers" or "recruiters" anyway. They are always inviting to church, Sunday school, Bible study, fellowship, etc.

 

Some coaches do not like to encourage players to come out for the team if they are not athletes. Is there something in the very basic nature of Christianity that makes a difference in the touted success of Christian privates?

 

 

Wouldn't disagree re: the options.....could/probably be.

Also true Christians tend to be gatherers / recruiters / inviting to church, etc.

This is unquestionably a fine thing to do, as far as church goes.

It does not cross over to football.

 

T$$AA Rules : Recruiting Section 17

 

"The use of undue influence on a student ( with or without an athletic record ),

the parents or guardians of a student by any person connected or not

connected with the school to secure or retain a student for athletic purposes,

shall be a violation of the recruiting rule.

 

Of course, then comes the interpretation thing, but you can see this could

be seen as pushing the rule.