What the heck is a "level playing field"

[blueandgoldfan]

There are other private DI privates than Boyd. Are you saying Goodpasture and David Lipscomb don't have wealthy alums? Is that what you are saying?

 

 

I certainly cannot put words in BC's mouth, but I can answer your question with another one. Are there any small D1's who recieved a $30 million donation to build a sports complex, like Ted Turner gave McCallie? I could be wrong, but I have never heard of such a thing. Granted, Lipscomb and Goodpasture probably have deeper pockets than the small privates in the Chattanooga area.

 

I do think that Lipscomb is a unique situation, as they can feasibly use resources or facilities from the university. I can't comment on Goodpasture. I just don't know that much about them.

[Antwan]

I don't think you are right or even close about this, but I noticed that you suddenly reverted to small rural publics. Is this a not so subtle attempt to count out small urban publics? I thought it wasn't a rural/urban issue?

 

But I'll play, how many DI athletes have the current non-aid schools produced? You say "many more", so I guess you have the numbers. Since we can't count 2 of the small publics who have produced the most, can I take out 2 small privates that have produced the most? After all, if you get to exclude them because they are urban, can I exclude 2 small privates because they are in the richest 2 counties in the state?

 

I don't think Tyner signed anyone this year.

 

I think South Pitt, not an urban public, medium sized 1a school, signed more kids than any small private in the state, all classes. I think Alcoa did too. As did Fulton. And I think all 3 of those schools have signed more DI athletes than ANY current small private in the last 20 years. But I don't have the numbers, so I'll let you print yours.

 

p.s. This, of course, doesn't take into account that the average public school in Tennessee graduates less than half of the kids who begin 9th grade and only about half the graduates qualify for or decide to attend college...implying that however many athletes small publics may sign at least that many and probably more had the talent but didn't or couldn't go to college. Almost all of the athletes at small privates not only qualify but choose to attend college...so the ratio gets even larger when we look at that.

 

 

 

I know for a fact more small privates have signed more kids than small publics. I really don't think Fulton is a small pubic with near 1000 students. Even so...I agree Alcoa has probably signed more DI than anyone else. You have always used Tyner as the example of how many public kids are signed. They didn't sign a soul this year. Is it SP now? They did sign 5 this year. They did not sign any DI. Jackson Christian signed 5 too. You also have to take into account there are many more small publics than there are small privates.

[PBandJ]

I know for a fact more small privates have signed more kids than small publics.

 

Numbers, numbers. If you know for a fact, then spill the beans. To know for a fact you must have the details, right? /dry.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

[old24eagle]

Lets define small public here.

 

#1 Alcoa is not a small public , they are a 2A school in a urban environment surrounded by maryville , sevierville, and knoxville.

 

#2 less than 500 would be small and more than 30 minutes from the closest WAL -MART would define rural.

 

schools that fall in these catagories are at a disadvantage to privates , magnets , and open zoned schools.

[Baldcoach]

There are other private DI privates than Boyd. Are you saying Goodpasture and David Lipscomb don't have wealthy alums? Is that what you are saying?

 

 

No, I didn't say that the DI privates "don't have wealthy alums". What I did say is they haven't been around long enough to have a lot...and those they have are busy spending their money elsewhere (like facilities and teacher salary increases...you do realize that on average teachers at small privates make LESS than teachers at publics, right?).

 

The big preps have LOTS of wealthy alums...partly because some of them have been around forever, and partly because they attract a much wealthier student body. Thus, they are the ones who have enough guys with money to spend some on athletics...that is why they offer financial aid, because they can afford it.

 

The non-aid schools dont offer aid because they can't afford to do it. If they can't afford to do that, they certainly can't afford to have some of their potential donations go to Johnny Football player when they need that new middleschool building or library. That isn't to say it NEVER has happened, it is just to point out that contrary to the tone of 3putt's post, if it did/does happen it is the rare exception, not the rule. Just like it would be the rare exception for a public school coach to have 'friends of the program' (read rich alumni) offer jobs to parents of good players so they can move into the zone, or rent apartments so that good players and a parent can claim residence (both of which HAVE happened).

 

Both DLHS and GP do have some wealthy alums...as do the public schools in Nashville. After all, that is the wealthiest metro area in the state. But just as I will continue to believe that public programs that perform well are doing so within the rules, I will believe that private programs that perform well are doing so honorably. The only way to give 3 putt's argument any credit at all is to assume guilt. It is a prejudiced argument from the beginning.

[Baldcoach]

Lets define small public here.

 

#1 Alcoa is not a small public , they are a 2A school in a urban environment surrounded by maryville , sevierville, and knoxville.

 

#2 less than 500 would be small and more than 30 minutes from the closest WAL -MART would define rural.

 

schools that fall in these catagories are at a disadvantage to privates , magnets , and open zoned schools.

 

 

Alcoa is a small 2a school. They are public. You are trying to "define small publics" as the most disadvantaged public schools in the state. Ok, I cede the debate. The small privates in general have advantages that the most disadvantaged and smallest, poorest, most rural publics in the state don't have. So we should what, hit everyone in the state who isn't public, less than 500 kids, and 50 miles from a major population center in an underpopulated county with a multiplier? You realize that is like 90% of the kids in the state both public and private, right? /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" /> You just argued TC and SPitt and almost every other decent small public into a multiplier. I'm ok with that, but I think they might protest a bit.

 

You can redefine anything to make your argument work..."True American" = someone who thinks just like me so those guys aren't really American. "Moral" = someone who thinks the same things are ok and not ok as I do so if you disagree with me you are immoral. But that is just prejudice in the guise of debate. It essentially boils down to "I'm right and you are wrong, and if it looks like you might be right I'm changing the rules of the argument so that I have to be right." Be like me or you are bad. We are the Borg, you will be assimilated.

 

All through this debate we have been talking about the small publics and small privates. That would be publics and privates in 1, 2, and 3a. If your argument against small privates is that they have huge advantages over their public opponents...so much that they need to be separated, then you have to include their opponents in the debate. You can't redefine the debate so that the best opponents aren't included. If you do, you have essentially argued that the best privates are better than the worst publics...which may be true but doesn't in any way show an advantage.

[Antwan]

Lets define small public here.

 

#1 Alcoa is not a small public , they are a 2A school in a urban environment surrounded by maryville , sevierville, and knoxville.

 

#2 less than 500 would be small and more than 30 minutes from the closest WAL -MART would define rural.

 

schools that fall in these catagories are at a disadvantage to privates , magnets , and open zoned schools.

 

 

Alcoa is definitely a small public. They are in a relatively urban area.

[old24eagle]

Alcoa is definitely a small public. They are in a relatively urban area.

 

You guys are misunderstanding me here. true compared to riverdale and oak ridge alcoa is small but compared to SP , Cloudland , Oakdale , Midway , Cosby , Coalfield , Unaka , and other Truly small East TN. publics they are relatively large. Now baldy how many of those schools could beat your little bitty private school EVER.

[rick7425]

You guys are misunderstanding me here. true compared to riverdale and oak ridge alcoa is small but compared to SP , Cloudland , Oakdale , Midway , Cosby , Coalfield , Unaka , and other Truly small East TN. publics they are relatively large. Now baldy how many of those schools could beat your little bitty private school EVER.

 

I'm not familiar with most of these schools, although if memory serves me correctly, Unaka won the TSSAA Class A boys' state basketball championship about four years ago. That was pre-multiplier, and Unaka beat FRA in the opening round of the state tournament. I'm pretty sure that is the only year in the last nine that the FRA boys made it to the state tournament (maybe the only year ever, but I wouldn't know about the years before 2000).

 

The FRA girls made it to the Class AA girls' state basketball tournament in 2006, losing in the first round to York Institute (which I think of as a small school, certainly public and certainly rural).

 

If you just want to talk football, then I suspect FRA would struggle against every one of these small public schools.

 

I'm sure someone has a reason why these examples should be disregarded.

[Baldcoach]

You guys are misunderstanding me here. true compared to riverdale and oak ridge alcoa is small but compared to SP , Cloudland , Oakdale , Midway , Cosby , Coalfield , Unaka , and other Truly small East TN. publics they are relatively large. Now baldy how many of those schools could beat your little bitty private school EVER.

 

 

Well, let's see...

 

South Pitt beats us all the time. They crushed us this year, in fact. If you look at the last 10 times we have played it is pretty even...if you look at the last 20 they have the advantage. We've only played Cloudland 1 time. We beat them, but it was in the quarterfinals of the state. Midway has never been good at Football, and if memory serves Coalfield has beaten us and we have beaten them. Don't know about Unaka or Cosby, but I'm guessing they aren't great Football programs.

 

So how does it tally out...we are one of the better privates in the state. Against the good 1a teams you named we are about 50-50. Against the bad ones we just don't know, but I'm guessing we beat them up pretty good most years as would the good publics. Thanks for making my point! The good publics are every bit as good as the good privates. The only argument you have is that the not good publics aren't as good as the good privates...which is true, but they are also not good against the good publics.

 

And student number wise we are a large 1a, actually have more students than SPitt, I guess I don't understand the ittybitty comment? Unless you are comparing us to the schools we end up playing in 2a...then it is appropriate.

 

p.s. i noticed that once again you framed the argument to include several schools that aren't very competitive in Football vs a good private. Try framing it with good privates vs good publics or poor privates vs poor publics. I know, I know, it just doesn't help your argument, but it is what it is.

[Bighurt]

FYI. In football, CPA is 0-2 against Union City, 0-1 against Cloudland, 0-1 against Mt. Pleasant, 1-4 against Trousdale County and 2-1 against Collinwood.

[Ole3putt]

"Independent shools have advantages, but it's hard to look at yourself and see your advantages," former BA football coach Carlton Flatt said. "if you're going to have DI and DII, I think every independent school should be in DII. The independent schools have so many more things in their favor, they should compete in the playoff with other private schools."

 

 

bump. Here's a outstanding coach, with a good quote for Independents..