Moving to New Divisions or Levels

[h2odog]

I'm curious, EastTNref, why not football? Are you basing this on winning percentages? Not trying to be smart, just want to understand your thought process.

 

wbcsoccerstud, I understand the viewpoint that A/AA is now considered "watered down" by many people. I actually was sorry that those teams left. I enjoy playing those quality programs. "So, why don't you join them?" some might ask. If my administration chooses to do so, I will. Until then, we will keep playing where the TSSAA puts us. Is there an "unfair" advantage to us being in A/AA? Depends on your view of "unfair". I think there will NEVER be true equity, even if ALL privates go D2... More rural schools have less club players (on average) than urban, some programs have more support, better coaches, bigger budgets, and so forth. BUT, I DO understand your frustrations. You all know I am for the merit program. It won't happen, but I still support it.

 

I would really like to know the reason that FRA, USJ and others went to D2. Was it for the tuition assistance? Was it for travel? I REALLY don't think it was because they felt like they shouldn't be in with the public schools.

 

Either way, I am going to move this to the Public/Private debate... I'll leave a link on the soccer boards. Coach T likes to keep these things on the boards that they were designated for.

 

 

What does "tuition assistance", as you added above mean?

[easttnref]

No, I am not saying that it is easier. I have the utmost respect for the teams in our district. While we lose Catholic, Alcoa is a formidable opponent.

 

 

 

Sigh... and I had thought we had made great strides, EastTNref. With beating Catholic this year, I figured maybe your viewpoints might have changed a bit.

 

 

 

 

 

I think "wbcsoccerstud11" stated it for me in regards to the statement of my viewpoints and Catholic.

 

 

Alcoa is a formidable opponent for sure but they do not have the history of commitment to soccer that we all are seeing from Akula. What happens when he leaves? I bet the hire will not be as serious to Alcoa as the search for a coach would be at Catholic or CAK.

 

 

 

G my views will not change I mean think about it the two public girls teams this season that made it to state are moving up to AAA. Neither team has ever made it to state before, and now have little chance to establish a tradition of doing so (same thing happened to Lenoir City). They did not have a choice to stay down or move up.

 

Now private schools have a choice DIV II or Div I. Then if they choose DIV II it seems they can pick and choose where to go inside the division (example: Webb). The kids who go to these schools have the choice to go to private or public school.

 

Public school kids don't have these options

[BigG]

What does "tuition assistance", as you added above mean?

 

OK... say you have a young man or lady that financially cannot pay tuition to the private school where they want to attend. They can apply for financial assistance from the school to get some help. Now, if that young person attends a school that is in Division 1 (which CAK is in) they cannot participate in ANY varsity sport. If they attend a Division 2 school (like Webb) they are able to get the assistance, but ALSO participate in varsity athletics.

 

EastTNref, I know your views wont change. Whether you believe it or not, we feel some similar thoughts here at CAK when we have to play Alcoa in the football playoffs (which we are tonight, and the outcome isn't looking too bright). Do I wish they were in another division? No. Just like everyone is saying that all of the "good teams" in A/AA are leaving, I want to BEAT the best to BE the best. Will we ever beat Alcoa football? I truly believe so. Will it happen on a regular basis? Most likely not. But I still want to play them. It makes us better. I want to strive for excellence, and not mediocrity. "So why don't you go to division 2?" one might ask... It's not my choice either way, but I think there are still excellent teams in A/AA! Greeneville being added is huge. CCS, Notre Dame, Alcoa, Kingston, are fine programs.

 

Again, I am not trying to convince you otherwise. But like I am doing for you, I want you to see my view points, as well.

 

 

I wonder though, COULD a public school go division 2?

[silverpie]

I wonder though, COULD a public school go division 2?

 

 

Yes, and the Shelby County system actually considered it. (They thought having MUS/Hutchison and CBHS/St. Agnes as their local rivals might be better than the city schools.) Didn't actually happen, though.

[easttnref]

Again, I am not trying to convince you otherwise. But like I am doing for you, I want you to see my view points, as well.

 

 

 

Football is a different animal G, but I understand where you are coming from.

[easttnref]

"Since private schools like Catholic are able to essentially recruit athletes, the TSSAA utilizes a multiplier to determine an equivalent to public school enrollments. The TSSAA multiplies the enrollment of private schools by 1.8. Catholic's 624 students will compete in a district with some 6A schools that have three times as many students"

 

 

 

 

This was taken from the news sentinel article this morning 11-15

 

 

 

All this " We don't recruit stuff", but G if Catholic does this.......?

[BigG]

"Since private schools like Catholic are able to essentially recruit athletes, the TSSAA utilizes a multiplier to determine an equivalent to public school enrollments. The TSSAA multiplies the enrollment of private schools by 1.8. Catholic's 624 students will compete in a district with some 6A schools that have three times as many students"

 

 

 

 

This was taken from the news sentinel article this morning 11-15

 

 

 

All this " We don't recruit stuff", but G if Catholic does this.......?

 

"By the rules" NO school is allowed to recruit regardless of division. Coaches sign a contract saying that we will not do so. This is a horrible "misquote" (don't know a better way to put it) by the News Sentinel. Adding "essentially" before recruit doesn't take away the label that private schools are allowed to recruit... they aren't. Does it happen? I am sure it does, but it is against the rules. If people do it, they should be held accountable.

 

The newspaper misrepresented the reason for the multiplier. It is not from the issue of recruitment (which again, is illegal even in D2). And I actually have never heard the "official" reason for the largest multiplier in the nation. I believe it was because the private schools were having great success in their relative divisions and they wanted to move them up, but needed a way to do so mathematically. (Please correct me if I am wrong).

 

EastTNref, I honestly DO see things from your viewpoint and I truly do respect where you are coming from. I am glad that you have at least taken the time to look at it from my side, and I think we can both agree that a perfect solution across the boards in all sports will be impossible to do. As you said, football is a different animal. This is AGAIN why I think we should do away with the public/private "issue" and go to a merit program! CAK has some sports that excel year after year, and some sports that don't. Swimming must compete against the biggest schools (I don't believe there are classifications in swimming outside of D1 and D2). Tennis has done well from year to year but our volleyball team has had mixed success (love you Coach Daves, just had to pick a team). Why not take each sport individually? If soccer does well, move them up a division. If volleyball is struggling, move them down a division. Shoot, the English Premier League does this and it works GREAT! This way, equitably talented programs would compete with each other every year. You wouldn't have 12-0 soccer scores. BUT you also wouldn't "punish" the sports that don't excel by moving them up just because one or two programs are very good. CAK soccer might be competing with schools that are 5 times their size in soccer if they were very successful, but then if they had a large graduating class and started to do poorly, they would be moved down, and the cycle would continue.

 

Either way, I do enjoy the debate, though I do hope that you (and all) can see that privates aren't some "evil entity" that preys on weaker opponents. I would prefer that we PRAY instead of prey myself. (I know, it sound cheesy, but if you know my heart, you know that it is actually more important to me than a great win/loss ratio).

 

Like SCHSdad said, my wife is kicking my soapbox now... gotta get down.

[h2odog]

"Since private schools like Catholic are able to essentially recruit athletes, the TSSAA utilizes a multiplier to determine an equivalent to public school enrollments. The TSSAA multiplies the enrollment of private schools by 1.8. Catholic's 624 students will compete in a district with some 6A schools that have three times as many students"

 

 

 

 

This was taken from the news sentinel article this morning 11-15

 

 

 

All this " We don't recruit stuff", but G if Catholic does this.......?

 

 

It seems like every year, the "recruiting" comment raises it's sleeping head and I only see that surfacing because of the quaiity of private schools soccer. Don't want to go beyond that sport. Our school has NO athletic scholarship or discounts. If a girl is recrutied to Hutch or St. Mary's or St. Agnes or St. Georges, I think their parents get the pleasure of spending about $15,000 so their daugher can play soccer. I'm sure Baylor, GPS, PJII, Father Ryan and I know Ensworth are more. The girls may not be restricted by school boundaries, like pubic schools, but you pay a lot to be accused of being recruited. If we could recruit, why wouldn't we field the best team year after year. It's a function of the talent pool that chooses to come to a specific private and it's just when the stars and moon line up that you get that great team. I know the decision for most players and parents is based on the quality of education they can achieve. Our graduating class of 77 girls in 2008 earned about $6,000,000 in scholarships (If my memory is correct) and 3 are playing soccer. The return for one's private school investment is education, not sports.

[akula21]

Well, I guess I'll throw my hat into the ring on this one. I hear/read the comments about alcoa being an open zoned school and how we recruit. Especially in football. Well I have yet to see any recruiting by coaches, parents, or players. Do I believe players have come to Alcoa due to their success on the field? Yes. But I will also be quick to add that our size limits tuition students so it isn't a situation where we go combing the fields of midget football. My only assumption is that this is the same situation at the privates. Also, with a message board like this and other electronic media and methods of communication, how would anyone get away with recruiting? I consider Big G a friend, but I'd turn his butt in if he came trying to pull one of my players to CAK. He would do the same to me. And I would hope everyone else would be honest enough to do the same.

 

On another note, since CAK is a popular punching bag/paintball target (had to throw that in there). I can remember when they were anything but a powerhouse during my highschool days. They got committed and dedicated and have put together one of the top programs in the state. I'm confident they will stay there, but that isn't to say they couldn't take a step back. My high school was one of the strongest in the state then fell on rough times and is trying to work its way back. I guess my message on this is that regardless of private or public, you have to bust your butt to get where you want to go. That could be developing players in the community, developing your high school players, changing the culture/commitment/vision of parents,players, administration; etc........ It isn't easy, but what worth getting in life is easy?

 

I for one enjoy the challenge of playing the best teams, just not the results so far. /dry.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

[h2odog]

It seems like every year, the "recruiting" comment raises it's sleeping head and I only see that surfacing because of the quaiity of private schools soccer. Don't want to go beyond that sport. Our school has NO athletic scholarship or discounts. If a girl is recrutied to Hutch or St. Mary's or St. Agnes or St. Georges, I think their parents get the pleasure of spending about $15,000 so their daugher can play soccer. I'm sure Baylor, GPS, PJII, Father Ryan and I know Ensworth are more. The girls may not be restricted by school boundaries, like pubic schools, but you pay a lot to be accused of being recruited. If we could recruit, why wouldn't we field the best team year after year. It's a function of the talent pool that chooses to come to a specific private and it's just when the stars and moon line up that you get that great team. I know the decision for most players and parents is based on the quality of education they can achieve. Our graduating class of 77 girls in 2008 earned about $6,000,000 in scholarships (If my memory is correct) and 3 are playing soccer. The return for one's private school investment is education, not sports.

 

 

Let me add that one year a Freshman soccer player was offered a $700-$800 academic scholarship because of excellant GPA. If she accepted it, she could not participate in Varsity games, JV only. They turned it down so she could advance her soccer play. I don't know who's rule that is, but I know the school enforces it.

[just4fun]

I hate it when people say DII schools can recruit. NO ONE is allowed to recruit as BigG said. I know a private school that has a character/academic/service scholarship which covers full tuition. If it is awarded to an athlete, they cannot accept the $ if they want to play varsity sports.

 

There is another issue in recruiting. Private and magnet school do recruit students. They have to to survive. Chattanooga area magnet schools have fair every year. The goal is to recruit students. Don't tell me when that 6'5 250 lb 8th grade football player walks up to the Tyner table, he doesn't get treated differently. (not accusing tyner of anything, just an example)

 

Private schools also have fairs. They also advertise in the paper or billboards. The issue is approaching a student based on his athletic abilities. I would say 90% of recruiting happens with parents. (public and private) Select teams and AAU provides a good way for parents to find out who is who and who do I need to talk to about coming to my kids school.

[wbcsoccerstud11]

What if someone were to say the recruiting took place before high-school. For instance to play middle school athletics instead of highschool. Does that mean it is not recruiting or is it recruiting? Does TSSAA punish this the same as recruiting in high-school if so?