HS coaches overusing pitchers!

[davidlimbaugh]

TSSAA is already a part of it.  Their post season set up is tailor made for riding one arm to the state championship.  There's no pitch count, no day's rest requirement, nothing.  Next Wednesday's region game is the best shot at getting a day off for the stud pitcher.  He'll pitch on Monday in the elimination game and coach will throw off in the Wednesday seeding game to give the arms a break.  Then back at it for the elimination game at sub-state and opening game of state.  It's set up for a dominant #1 to pitch 3 out of 4 games.

 

Over the years, especially in A and AA, look at the scores in the State Tournament.

 

For over a decade I have been trying to get the baseball post-season changed in Tennessee.  TBCA has voted on and agreed with my plan.

 

Our current system requires a team to do 3 things.  1) Get out of the district.   2) Win a game on Monday  3) Win a game on Friday.

 

What has happened over the years?  Teams have gotten to the state tournament by doing those 3 things.  A lot of teams have accomplished that because they have 1 big arm.

 

He pitches in district tournament. 

 

He pitches on Monday. 

He pitches of Friday on 3 days rest.

He pitches on Tuesday in Spring Fling on 3 days rest.

If his team makes the Finals on Friday he pitches again on 2 days rest.

 

After the district tournament is over, in 12 days he will make 4 starts - perhaps throw 400+ pitches.

I have seen it several times over the past 20 years....

 

Once that arm has pitched on Tuesday in the state tournament, a lot of teams run out of pitching pretty quick and a lot of ugly baseball takes place. Before the new bat rules, some scores were really bad. Scores like 26-0 and 19-0...

 

Baseball is a TEAM sport.  One of the measurements of a baseball team is its depth at pitching. Teams that have depth are penalized by losing 1 game to a team with 1 big arm.  Baseball is not a 1-and-done sport.

 

Plan is pretty simple.  Take this year's 7AAA and 8AAA teams.

 

This is an ODD year so 7AAA winner hosts.

 

Regional start this Friday (tomorrow)  at Riverdale - district tournaments new deadline is Tuesday....

 

4:00 Smyrna vs Lawrence Co

6:30 Columbia vs Riverdale

 

Saturday

 

10:00 Loser vs Loser

12:30 Winner vs Winner - winner of this game advances to Sectional as host team

  3:00 Winner of 10:00 vs loser of 12:30  - winner of this game advances to Sectional as visiting team

 

Next Friday - Sectionals - best 2 out of 3

 

Winner of regional hosts runner-up of adjoining regional - single game Friday, 2 games Saturday if neccessary

 

This schedule gives pitchers rest between region and sectionals.

 

This requires teams to have more than just 1 great pitcher to reach Murfreesboro and Spring Fling...

[BlessedHope]

Over the years, especially in A and AA, look at the scores in the State Tournament.

 

For over a decade I have been trying to get the baseball post-season changed in Tennessee.  TBCA has voted on and agreed with my plan.

 

Our current system requires a team to do 3 things.  1) Get out of the district.   2) Win a game on Monday  3) Win a game on Friday.

 

What has happened over the years?  Teams have gotten to the state tournament by doing those 3 things.  A lot of teams have accomplished that because they have 1 big arm.

 

He pitches in district tournament. 

 

He pitches on Monday. 

He pitches of Friday on 3 days rest.

He pitches on Tuesday in Spring Fling on 3 days rest.

If his team makes the Finals on Friday he pitches again on 2 days rest.

 

After the district tournament is over, in 12 days he will make 4 starts - perhaps throw 400+ pitches.

I have seen it several times over the past 20 years....

 

Once that arm has pitched on Tuesday in the state tournament, a lot of teams run out of pitching pretty quick and a lot of ugly baseball takes place. Before the new bat rules, some scores were really bad. Scores like 26-0 and 19-0...

 

Baseball is a TEAM sport.  One of the measurements of a baseball team is its depth at pitching. Teams that have depth are penalized by losing 1 game to a team with 1 big arm.  Baseball is not a 1-and-done sport.

 

Plan is pretty simple.  Take this year's 7AAA and 8AAA teams.

 

This is an ODD year so 7AAA winner hosts.

 

Regional start this Friday (tomorrow)  at Riverdale - district tournaments new deadline is Tuesday....

 

4:00 Smyrna vs Lawrence Co

6:30 Columbia vs Riverdale

 

Saturday

 

10:00 Loser vs Loser

12:30 Winner vs Winner - winner of this game advances to Sectional as host team

  3:00 Winner of 10:00 vs loser of 12:30  - winner of this game advances to Sectional as visiting team

 

Next Friday - Sectionals - best 2 out of 3

 

Winner of regional hosts runner-up of adjoining regional - single game Friday, 2 games Saturday if neccessary

 

This schedule gives pitchers rest between region and sectionals.

 

This requires teams to have more than just 1 great pitcher to reach Murfreesboro and Spring Fling...

 

This is why Mr. Limbaugh is so well respected across the state.  I completely agree the proposal above.  This would show which PROGRAM is best in all classifications.  My guess is the majority of coaches would agree as well.  If the objective of the Spring Fling is to truly decide the best team then let the teams duke it out in a 3-game series to get there.  This benefits the teams with the deepest rotations, as well as, the pitchers who are the horses from probable injury.  Tommy John comes about in 2 ways: 1.) being total mileage of the arm gives out without proper rest and rehab and 2.) poor mechanics.  This plan save the kids from themselves, and show who the better team is all around.

 

 

[thegreatwhite1]

Another issue at play here is what takes place outside of the high school season and also what is more important to the kid... high school ball or summer/fall travel ball (or both).  When you start adding up the miles that are put on the arms from a younger age, it is no surprise that injuries are occurring at a higher rate.  Also, look at the younger ages of baseball and how players are used.  Many times the best pitcher also plays another position, and that can be quite stressful on the arm.  Not many youth/travel coaches take into account how taxing the throw from short stop can be, much less on a kid that has thrown 100+ pitches in prior days. This is why your better high school coaches use their short stops and catchers on the mound when it is absolutely necessary... Just my 2 cents.

[VeerCoach]

I injured my arm in college my second year.  I went from being a starter every 5-6 days in high school and summer ball. to being an everyday reliever in college. Now I will admit the injury was  fault on my end because I did not take care of my arm at any point in my career and that is my fault because I wanted pitch everyday

[cbg]

The first priority of any coach is the safety and well being of all the athletes. After the safety issues have been accomplished everything else is up for debate. It IS NOT the job of the parents to be in charge/micro manage their son/speak with the coach, etc...about the health of the players. The coaching staff should be in tune with what is going on with his athletes. Everyone knows that you cannot trust the players to tell the coach that they have a sore arm or their arm is tired. From my past experience most high school coaches operate like Little League coaches and whomever they start on the bump is who they are going to try and close with. The reality is that to win a state championship (should be every teams goal) you must have 6+ pitchers on the team. The only way to develop a pitching staff that is capable of winning a state championship is to allow 6+ players to throw on a regular basis. If the coaches are not going to monitor pitch counts and watch after their players safety and well being the TSSAA will have to step forward with pitch counts and mandatory rest just like Little League did several years ago.

[glock22]

TSSAA needs to stay out of it, plain and simple.  First of all I seriously doubt these guys are D1 pitchers, because D1 pitchers don't need 120+ pitches to win a game in AA.  The vast majority of coaches take care of the arms of their pitchers because having fresh arms in May gives them the best chance of advancing in the tournament. 99% of high school players are not going to play in college.  If a kid wants to compete and give his team a chance to win, I say let them go.  Good coaches are smart enough on when to rest em and when to roll em. 

THIS^^^^!

[Dragonmaster]

Over the years, especially in A and AA, look at the scores in the State Tournament.

 

For over a decade I have been trying to get the baseball post-season changed in Tennessee.  TBCA has voted on and agreed with my plan.

 

Our current system requires a team to do 3 things.  1) Get out of the district.   2) Win a game on Monday  3) Win a game on Friday.

 

What has happened over the years?  Teams have gotten to the state tournament by doing those 3 things.  A lot of teams have accomplished that because they have 1 big arm.

 

He pitches in district tournament. 

 

He pitches on Monday. 

He pitches of Friday on 3 days rest.

He pitches on Tuesday in Spring Fling on 3 days rest.

If his team makes the Finals on Friday he pitches again on 2 days rest.

 

After the district tournament is over, in 12 days he will make 4 starts - perhaps throw 400+ pitches.

I have seen it several times over the past 20 years....

 

Once that arm has pitched on Tuesday in the state tournament, a lot of teams run out of pitching pretty quick and a lot of ugly baseball takes place. Before the new bat rules, some scores were really bad. Scores like 26-0 and 19-0...

 

Baseball is a TEAM sport.  One of the measurements of a baseball team is its depth at pitching. Teams that have depth are penalized by losing 1 game to a team with 1 big arm.  Baseball is not a 1-and-done sport.

 

Plan is pretty simple.  Take this year's 7AAA and 8AAA teams.

 

This is an ODD year so 7AAA winner hosts.

 

Regional start this Friday (tomorrow)  at Riverdale - district tournaments new deadline is Tuesday....

 

4:00 Smyrna vs Lawrence Co

6:30 Columbia vs Riverdale

 

Saturday

 

10:00 Loser vs Loser

12:30 Winner vs Winner - winner of this game advances to Sectional as host team

  3:00 Winner of 10:00 vs loser of 12:30  - winner of this game advances to Sectional as visiting team

 

Next Friday - Sectionals - best 2 out of 3

 

Winner of regional hosts runner-up of adjoining regional - single game Friday, 2 games Saturday if neccessary

 

This schedule gives pitchers rest between region and sectionals.

 

This requires teams to have more than just 1 great pitcher to reach Murfreesboro and Spring Fling...

David looking at this it seems you have to play more games.  at least 3 possibly 5....during finals and exams and graduations.......logistical nightmare.....i bet the coaches like it because they are out of school and it eliminates one bad game to ending a season.   It does require more depth in pitching.  

We saw a kid last week throw 145 pitches against us in a 16-0 loss.  We batted twice.  He threw the next night 8 innings and had 15 walks in a 28-25 win.    At the time I asked our pitching coach is there any guidelines for innings and he said, 10 innings  in two consecutive days.

  Hope to get to talk with you at state.

 

DM  

[strongx]

Good topic. First of all, there are no absolutes (so there are coaches who do the right thing). I was told many years ago that most high school coaches are going to have a player do what benefits that coach the most - not necessarily what benefits the player the most (regardless of sport). In general, I believe this to be true. With most coaches, pitchers throw too much, catchers catch too much, players play injured, and it's more about wins than protection or developement.

 

I would support some type of inning restriction and/or pitch count on pitchers. I don't like them but sadly most coaches cannot be trusted. And I agree with an earlier post about the TSSAA playoffs being set up to be harmful to the arms. I too know a pitcher who threw 3 games in 8 days. Too much IMO.

[davidlimbaugh]

David looking at this it seems you have to play more games. at least 3 possibly 5....during finals and exams and graduations.......logistical nightmare.....i bet the coaches like it because they are out of school and it eliminates one bad game to ending a season. It does require more depth in pitching.

We saw a kid last week throw 145 pitches against us in a 16-0 loss. We batted twice. He threw the next night 8 innings and had 15 walks in a 28-25 win. At the time I asked our pitching coach is there any guidelines for innings and he said, 10 innings in two consecutive days.

Hope to get to talk with you at state.

 

DM

I hope to see ya in a couple of weeks! Let's shoot for Friday

 

Right now it is Monday Wednesday Friday. Two school nights. My plan is 2 weekends. No exams. Less chance of graduation conflicts for some.

[VeerCoach]

Over the years, especially in A and AA, look at the scores in the State Tournament.

 

For over a decade I have been trying to get the baseball post-season changed in Tennessee.  TBCA has voted on and agreed with my plan.

 

Our current system requires a team to do 3 things.  1) Get out of the district.   2) Win a game on Monday  3) Win a game on Friday.

 

What has happened over the years?  Teams have gotten to the state tournament by doing those 3 things.  A lot of teams have accomplished that because they have 1 big arm.

 

He pitches in district tournament. 

 

He pitches on Monday. 

He pitches of Friday on 3 days rest.

He pitches on Tuesday in Spring Fling on 3 days rest.

If his team makes the Finals on Friday he pitches again on 2 days rest.

 

After the district tournament is over, in 12 days he will make 4 starts - perhaps throw 400+ pitches.

I have seen it several times over the past 20 years....

 

Once that arm has pitched on Tuesday in the state tournament, a lot of teams run out of pitching pretty quick and a lot of ugly baseball takes place. Before the new bat rules, some scores were really bad. Scores like 26-0 and 19-0...

 

Baseball is a TEAM sport.  One of the measurements of a baseball team is its depth at pitching. Teams that have depth are penalized by losing 1 game to a team with 1 big arm.  Baseball is not a 1-and-done sport.

 

Plan is pretty simple.  Take this year's 7AAA and 8AAA teams.

 

This is an ODD year so 7AAA winner hosts.

 

Regional start this Friday (tomorrow)  at Riverdale - district tournaments new deadline is Tuesday....

 

4:00 Smyrna vs Lawrence Co

6:30 Columbia vs Riverdale

 

Saturday

 

10:00 Loser vs Loser

12:30 Winner vs Winner - winner of this game advances to Sectional as host team

  3:00 Winner of 10:00 vs loser of 12:30  - winner of this game advances to Sectional as visiting team

 

Next Friday - Sectionals - best 2 out of 3

 

Winner of regional hosts runner-up of adjoining regional - single game Friday, 2 games Saturday if neccessary

 

This schedule gives pitchers rest between region and sectionals.

 

This requires teams to have more than just 1 great pitcher to reach Murfreesboro and Spring Fling...

 

 

The first priority of any coach is the safety and well being of all the athletes. After the safety issues have been accomplished everything else is up for debate. It IS NOT the job of the parents to be in charge/micro manage their son/speak with the coach, etc...about the health of the players. The coaching staff should be in tune with what is going on with his athletes. Everyone knows that you cannot trust the players to tell the coach that they have a sore arm or their arm is tired. From my past experience most high school coaches operate like Little League coaches and whomever they start on the bump is who they are going to try and close with. The reality is that to win a state championship (should be every teams goal) you must have 6+ pitchers on the team. The only way to develop a pitching staff that is capable of winning a state championship is to allow 6+ players to throw on a regular basis. If the coaches are not going to monitor pitch counts and watch after their players safety and well being the TSSAA will have to step forward with pitch counts and mandatory rest just like Little League did several years ago.

 

 

After reading both of these I think all districts should be set up as 3-game series ... right now only a couple of them do that, but I think that would be an effective way to build your pitching staff. It may be the end to some of these tournaments but really you should not play more than 30 regular season games anyway. Also with more and more schools now having lights you can play 1 on monday or tuesday and play 2 on tuesday or wednesday still occasionally play a tournament here or there. And also instead of having a district tournament, play the season a week longer and have a 8-team double elimnation region tournament ...... play in games to get to 8 obviously with in each district. And then sectional 2 out of 3

 

 

so using David's example of 7-AAA and 8-AAA

 

play in games

 

7-AAA 

 

2 Siegel 4

7 Oakland 5

 

3 Smyrna 8

6 Stewarts Creek 1

 

4 LaVergne 2

5 Blackman 3

 

8-AAA

 

6 Lincoln 2

7 Coffee 3

 

4 Tullahoma 2

5 Shelbyville 1

 

3 Franklin Co 2

7 Coffee Co 0

 

Tournament

8-1 Riverdale

7-4 Tullahoma

 

7-2 Lawrence Co

8-3 Smyrna

 

7-1 Columbia

8-4 Blackman (replaces LaVergne)

 

8-2 Oakland (replaces Siegel)

7-3 Franklin Co

Edited May 10, 2015 by VeerCoach

[davidlimbaugh]

Baseball should never be 1 and done. 7AAA plays 3 game series and a double elimination bracket, no play in game.

[memphisbballguy]

Baseball should never be 1 and done. 7AAA plays 3 game series and a double elimination bracket, no play in game.

Alabama and Mississippi do it right the way they p[lay 3 game series...Tennessee is the most backwards state when it comes to baseball state tournament