Oliver Springs

[TSSAAfootball]

1 hour ago, crow said:

No I haven’t forgotten that but my point is if the extra year is the secret sauce then it’s lost on the high school results. The same 8th grader that’s a year older than other schools is a year older his freshman, sophomore, junior and senior year yet the age advantage doesn’t seem to translate after middle school. We all know the advantages of a year of physical and mental maturity brings even throughout the college years with most male athletes physically peaking at 24-26 years old. Also the kinderstart program was available to all schools, if the county or any other system chose not to participate then that was just that, their choice. Could it be an advantage in certain circumstances? Of course but the fact remains no child is required to begin school (kindergarten) until age 6 making them roughly 14 in 8th grade. TMSAA does not allow anyone turning 15 prior to august 1 to play so I really have never understood the “advantage” of the kinderstart system some comment on when any students parents can opt to start their child in kindergarten at basically the same age if middle school athletics are their primary concern. 
 

As for the influx I’m also aware. I have family in the system as well. 

The Kinderstart program was not available to any school district. You had to apply for the grant to pay for the teachers and program, otherwise you were footing the bill yourself. It was a gimmick that most good school districts wouldn't even think about using. Oneida though used it as a way to increase test scores. Their kids would be a year older, thus do better on the state tests. It worked. And you are right no child is forced to start at age 5, but 99.9% of the kids in the country start KG at age 5. Graduate at age 18. Except for Oneida. And it's not just one kid here, one kid there. It's a school district wide program. About 95% of boys and 70% of girls have stayed back a year. So that means when that MS team is playing they are playing with freshman vs 8th graders. Not 1 kid here, 1 kid there, but rather 95% of the team should be a grade above. That is an enormous advantage in MS. Hence, why Oneida MS sports are so good. And those 8th graders with beards and mustaches, they stop growing soon after. That's why I said they peak in middle school. They are good in middle school and have success because they are on "steroids". It's not because they are coached well, or workout so much, or practice so much. It's because they are a year older than everyone. And in 8th and 9th grade, that is a huge advantage. That kid therefore thinks he is just going to keep being better than the kid from York. Well the problem is that kid from York works and works and works and gets coached up. Then his hormones catch up and all of a sudden you have a stud in 11th grade. Not a stud in 8th grade who never gets better after that.

[crow]

7 hours ago, TSSAAfootball said:

The Kinderstart program was not available to any school district. You had to apply for the grant to pay for the teachers and program, otherwise you were footing the bill yourself. It was a gimmick that most good school districts wouldn't even think about using. Oneida though used it as a way to increase test scores. Their kids would be a year older, thus do better on the state tests. It worked. And you are right no child is forced to start at age 5, but 99.9% of the kids in the country start KG at age 5. Graduate at age 18. Except for Oneida. And it's not just one kid here, one kid there. It's a school district wide program. About 95% of boys and 70% of girls have stayed back a year. So that means when that MS team is playing they are playing with freshman vs 8th graders. Not 1 kid here, 1 kid there, but rather 95% of the team should be a grade above. That is an enormous advantage in MS. Hence, why Oneida MS sports are so good. And those 8th graders with beards and mustaches, they stop growing soon after. That's why I said they peak in middle school. They are good in middle school and have success because they are on "steroids". It's not because they are coached well, or workout so much, or practice so much. It's because they are a year older than everyone. And in 8th and 9th grade, that is a huge advantage. That kid therefore thinks he is just going to keep being better than the kid from York. Well the problem is that kid from York works and works and works and gets coached up. Then his hormones catch up and all of a sudden you have a stud in 11th grade. Not a stud in 8th grade who never gets better after that.

I understand what you’re saying but it doesn’t make sense really. If the 8th grader being”a freshman” is a physical advantage then in high school the freshman that’s “a sophomore” or sophomore that’s “a junior” would be as well but that’s not what we see in results. As for hard work, coaches, or practice few middle school teams in the area have the ability to have a workout program like Oneida. I see these middle schoolers in the weight room and while other programs in the area do have strength programs they traditionally haven’t had the same opportunity as Oneida seeing that Oneida shares a field house and weight room with the high school. Others have closed the gap in recent years in regards to the access to weight facilities however. And I would certainly disagree that the coaching and practice routine at OMS is not well above the average middle school program but I’m sure you feel it’s simply the product of the kinderstart program. I guess the real question is why was Oneida high school considered a perineal powerhouse  in football until the last 10ish years? Other sports continue to compete at very high levels. I’m referring to the success of the boys and girls basketball, soccer and baseball as well as softball. They’re not state champions mind you but they all compete at a very high level and have a good deal of success most years. The lapse of the kinderstart program hasn’t had time to alter football so I’m thinking there’s a different cause than your hypothesis suggests. 
 

As for the kinderstart program not being available to every program, well you’re just wrong. Any system could apply for the same grant or opt to pay for the program if they chose to. As for the most “good school districts” dig I’d be more than happy to compare academic or athletic résumé’s with whatever school you most closely follow but unfortunately you have not yet found the courage to publicly declare who that is (although I have a pretty good idea). I know, I know you’re such a major public figure and your words carry such weight and influence that by simply stating which high school program you follow the good reputation of such a storied program could be tarnished by you offending someone with what you say if the program name was revealed blah, blah blah. Super easy to sit behind a screen name and throw rocks when you know none can come back in return. Your post is just the most recent rendition of your public distaste for all things Oneida you have for whatever reason. As in most of our interactions, we must once again agree to disagree on most but not all points. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by crow

[TSSAAfootball]

The kinderstart advantage lessens as you get older, that's where we agree. It's still an advantage but the effect is much smaller in high school, although last year it was nice having 12 kids that were 19 years old playing. In MS it's a huge advantage. Add in the fact that you can go to Oneida, and not live in Oneida, you have 2 major advantages over other MS programs. The amount of kids that "transfer" to Oneida for sports is a pretty nice advantage. Much easier for them to play small school football and make the playoffs every year by beating Wartburg rather than play vs teams like Alcoa and Fulton and get your brains beat in every week. From someone outside the Oneida program, it's pretty easy to see the cycle that has been created with Oneida. 

But you are right, we don't agree on much. 

[crow]

If the physical advantage lessens as you age then why not allow high school graduates to go directly from high school to the NFL? Why force 3 years of college first unlike baseball or basketball? It’s almost as if a sport like football requires more age (growth and physical maturity) so one doesn’t get hurt playing against those much older than you are. That would suggest that the physical advantages continue well into your 20’s. The medical community back that theory up as male athletes reach peak muscle mass at 25 on average and decrease by 4% (roughly) per year after so not sure the “decreases over time” theory holds up. Also those that live in Oneida can, and do, go to the county schools as well. Oneida is also partially funded by the county so why wouldn’t students anywhere in the county (or even outside of it in a few instances) be able to go wherever they want as long as they provide their own transportation? Anderson county has quite a good athlete that lives within 2 miles of Scott high mind you) After all Oneida is in Scott County last I checked. And those twelve 19 year olds you referenced (I’ll take your word as I have not checked that myself) they all would’ve turned 19 after August 1 like anywhere else in the state. You have all the info, we’re all twelve 19 before, during or after the season? And with 4 wins I don’t see the advantage producing results. Then again in one sentence you declared the advantage diminishes with age then the next state that having 19 year olds was an advantage. You state that having older players benefits MS despite them not having and better coaching, work ethics or practice habits then discount the fact that the same players are not continuing to excel in HS. I understand your point on the HS players not continuing to work due to the MS success but I’m not sure your reasoning is accurate. Maybe their work ethics fall off due to coaching and motivation and the MS results may come from those same influences, coaching and motivation? I do see some of the points you’re trying to make but I think there just isn’t really a point there to make. At any rate the season will be here soon enough and again we agree we don’t look for Oneida to be in the conversation beyond November. Good luck to your “mystery” team this year, maybe they will make a run 

Edited July 12, 2023 by crow

[crow]

BTW other than this completely hijacking this topic and our almost universal disagreement on most topics I do enjoy this type of conversation. Just wish it wasn’t one sided from a program perspective. It would be nice to be able to pick apart your program in return ya know 

Edited July 12, 2023 by crow

[rtl112]

4 hours ago, crow said:

BTW other than this completely hijacking this topic and our almost universal disagreement on most topics I do enjoy this type of conversation. Just wish it wasn’t one sided from a program perspective. It would be nice to be able to pick apart your program in return ya know 

I knew they was something behind all the success the Indians have had all these years!

[crow]

8 minutes ago, rtl112 said:

I knew they was something behind all the success the Indians have had all these years!

Yep, a roster full of 20-something’s and you to could achieve mediocrity and perineal 2nd round losses as well 

Edited July 12, 2023 by crow

[Spike016]

18 hours ago, crow said:

Yeah I could come up with a reason or two. Just patiently waiting for better times. They’ll come, maybe. Hopefully this fall but if not then we’ll just keep waiting. Been doing it for a decade or so now. 

I agree with ya! I had no interest in em and then the closer it gets I know I’ll be there like always 

[TSSAAfootball]

3 hours ago, crow said:

Yep, a roster full of 20-something’s and you to could achieve mediocrity and perineal 2nd round losses as well 

Honest question. I know they won Single A State Championship way back when with leather helmets and runningbacks that weighed 105 pounds. But was Oneida really ever a perennial powerhouse? It seems since 2000, that beating a terrible team in Round 1 then losing in Round 2 was the norm and some years worse than that. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by TSSAAfootball

[crow]

2 hours ago, TSSAAfootball said:

Honest question. I know they won Single A State Championship way back when with leather helmets and runningbacks that weighed 105 pounds. But was Oneida really ever a perennial powerhouse? It seems since 2000, that beating a terrible team in Round 1 then losing in Round 2 was the norm and some years worse than that. 

I am going on the opinion of other programs around the area and East. I’m not sure leather helmets were a thing in the 1992 season when Oneida won a state championship (just 3 football classes including private schools) Or the 1994 season semifinals team(2A with 3 classes including private schools) there have been numerous semifinal teams over the years including 2008 and a very good 2012 team I believe it was. During the Coach May senior tenure yes they were a bone to be chewed year in and year out. The “it’s just Oneida” mentality is really the last 10 or so years honestly. Before that dating back quite a long way while no gold balls came to Oneida not a lot of folks looked forward to that game. Now, well least just say things have changed. As for a definitive answer I believe the folks like @orngnblk @pujo @rtl112 and several other old timers give their opinions on if Oneida was considered a “powerhouse” or not until the last decade or so but I would say the late 80’s and the 90’s yes. In the T$$AA era (1969 to present I believe)we’ve had 1 championship, 8 semifinals and 9 round 3 games. Since then the program has a 67% winning percentage at 513-257-5 and 18 district/region championships and I’d have to look but I’d be willing to bet a larger number came in the 3 class with private schools playing public era than the multiple class/multiple division setup we currently have. But a smart fellar like you likely already knew most of that now didn’t ya? I give credit where its due, no way a guy knows that much about a school system but failed to realize they had a modern era championship and the Jim May senior era. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by crow

[crow]

Oops, almost forgot to post the receipts 

Also I believe these stats are good through 2020 as 2021 and 2022 are not listed but not like we set the world on fire those two years either.

http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/teams/teampage.asp?Team=Oneida

Edited July 13, 2023 by crow

[The Drunken Sailor]

3 hours ago, TSSAAfootball said:

Honest question. I know they won Single A State Championship way back when with leather helmets and runningbacks that weighed 105 pounds. But was Oneida really ever a perennial powerhouse? It seems since 2000, that beating a terrible team in Round 1 then losing in Round 2 was the norm and some years worse than that. 

I can't say if they were a perennial powerhouse, but we met them in '69 in the first football playoffs. Then they had a few tough teams in the mid 80s as well as some in the 90s.

They were in the playoffs all through the 80s. That's something because back then you had just three classes and you actually had to do something to make the playoffs other than just having matching uniforms.