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This thread is inspired by the themes of some recent ones - TN strong, TN weak, weight class changes, postseason results, etc. Bottom line from those discussions, everyone seems interested in the state of TN wrestling and wants it to improve. After crunching some numbers and reflecting on those posts, I had some thoughts to share. Below is just one man’s opinion on where we stand, what needs to improve, and who is responsible. Bottom line up front - TN has always been better defined by a few individual performances rather than team strength. And as a rising tide lifts all boats, we need the teams across the state to all step up. By individual, I’m referring to the short list of next level success like Phillip Simpson, Jordan Leen, and Nick Marable. There are some with very recent successes on the biggest stages (like Cody Chittum, the Ohorchuk brothers, Fowler, etc) who could find serious success at the NCAA level. However, even with Cleveland’s run of local dominance, there is a lack a presence on the national stage. And I believe the best factor to create that isn’t Cleveland (or Baylor or Summit whatever team you cheer for) traveling 1000 miles to find competition. Every team needs a school right down the road who can challenge them. National team rankings at the high school level are a fools errand. The top 10 is typically perennial powers with the same list of names from the PA/OH region + Blair Academy, and I don’t put much stock in a team being ranked #38 in the nation. There are too many teams, not enough common opponents, and plenty of inconsistencies in performance at this level. So I will admit, I don’t have well-defined metrics to measure team success. But I can tell you what it’s not: I crunched the numbers on every TN teams starting lineup. This is not a perfect science - I used the region tournaments across all 3 mens divisions, and looked at the number of wrestlers competing for each school. Injuries, illness, or other uncontrollable factors across the long season could have lowered the total. Regardless, the numbers make me depressed as a fan. Across all divisions, we averaged 9.9 wrestlers/team. Pretty easy math tells me the average team in TN is forfeiting 4 weights. Now imagine two “average” teams meeting for a dual, each with 10 wrestlers across 14 weights. The fans will see no more than 10 matches competed, and that assumes the gaps align for 4 double forfeits. More than likely we’ll see a few wrestlers trot out to get a hand raised and return to the bench. In my opinion, those forfeits are what most disappoints wrestlers, coaches, and parents and are KILLING this sport. Duals are the most fan-friendly environment we have as a sport. Only parents or the most passionate fans will attend the entirety of a 2-day tournament. Dual tournaments or quads take all day as well, and NOBODY cares about a dual tournament. A single dual on the other hand, it can have it all: regional rivalries and bragging rights, a marquee matchup or two, history between programs, and a very consumable 90 minutes from whistle to whistle. Nobody wants to see 18+ points scored by forfeit and it end in 36 minutes with a lopsided score. And no wrestler wants to sacrifice all week to receive a forfeit. What can we as fans, supporters, or parents do? A few suggestions, from most demanding to least. get involved! If your program lacks a feeder program, or the program lacks results, put yourself to work. You don’t have to be Cael Sanderson, you just need to get kids to the wrestling room and create an environment they want to be in. Recruit!… No not like that! If you are a parent to a young wrestler, invite other parents and kids to try it out (wouldn’t a Friday night dual between two powerhouse schools be a great intro to the sport?) If you know some hasbeen wrestlers like me, recruit them to coach at any level. If you can’t be involved, find some friends who can be. Demand accountability! Of the 180 schools who competed at regionals, only 31 had a full 14 man lineup. Some are interested in the 12 weight class option for next year, but only 65 teams brought 12 or more - and in my opinion changing the weight classes is just shifting the goalpost without addressing the root cause of poor participation. Parents, boosters, and especially athletic directors should be demanding results from these coaches. A basketball team in Memphis would never only find 4 players. Football teams across the state would be laughed out the stadium without a full lineup. So why is it acceptable for wrestling teams to repeatedly compete short handed? I won’t accuse any coaches of just being in it for a stipend, but we had a whole thread here accusing TN wrestlers of being “soft” with no focus on the coaches who have accepted they will never win. What is that approach teaching our youth? In closing, I love wrestling. I have no issues spending all day at a tournament, even to watch “weak” competition. But for the sake of the sport, for our athletes, for our reputation, we have to do better. Not rocket science - full lineups of hard-working athletes who started competing sooner in life yields a better product. That better product equates to less travel for our young studs - it seems everyone is on the road far too much these days, I think all would love a few more weekends in their own beds. Maybe my thesis here will spark some responses. I hope it inspires some to action, and over the next decade we will see increased results across all levels. It’s harder to find concrete solutions to the true root causes than it is to propose infeasible solutions to less relevant conditions (looking at never ending argument on the proper number of divisions), and I’m excited to hear any other feedback or proposals. While I believe I know how to create improvement in a single wrestling program, none of us have the power to enact total change across such a large and diverse state. So stick to what you can control, and improve the team closest to you.

Of all that rambling I just read, I agree with one thing. It’s definitely “business” when it comes to JJ . I’m not discrediting the talent, but I’ll definitely question how some of it got to Bearden. All I’m saying.

Caden Harris, upcoming sophmore for Haywood. Picks ups his first FBS offer from TCU

I think most who want one division are really thinking the following. Perhaps I'm wrong. 1. The parents, coaches, and administrators who want three divisions are soft, not the kids, as kids feed off what leadership adults provide. 2. Regardless of how everyone feels, myself included, it is indeed easier (unarguably so) to medal in the state of TN so if someone feels that kids didn't work quite as hard or earn it just as much it is a valid opinion regardless of popularity of said opinion. Again, this isn't due to the kids as kids don't make the rules. I've been steady in that I personally don't know what the best answer is but I do understand both points-of-view. I've also been steady in that I would 100% combine 1A and 1AA while using 32 man brackets. I like kids, respect their efforts, and I don't play the game of "kids today" because every old man that ever existed since the dawn of man played that same game. That game is dumb, if a kid stinks then his parents stink (exceptions of course). I've met very few bad kids but I've met many bad parents.

I don't mind the split as a team for duals to be small, large and D2, my gripe has always been the individuals and not the team. It's why its a joke to even give a team title for an individual tournament and some college coaches have said the same with NCAA's and putting an emphasis on the dual aspect. The sport though is an individual sport, if I'm getting my butt beat by someone, i can't tag team out, I can't call in a sub I take that beating myself, just like if I absolutely demolish someone on the mat. I mean if it was just a team sport we would have never had champions like Tim Voiles. He was the only kid on his Lookout Valley team, so he traveled to get the best partners possible and I don't believe any coach in the area with a large school would turn down letting smaller teams come and practice with their teams. At Soddy we had all kinds of teams come and practice with us, I wrestled a few years with NO SPLIT and a few years with public/private. We would have schools come in and practice a few times each season with us. However as a dual team its almost impossible for a smaller school to compete with the Clevelands of the world or even Wilson Central. Maybe the top of the top could hold their own, but in the end the bigger schools would prevail. So I have no issue at all with a dual split for team titles and I never have. I mean at one time in the 1990's they did large(private and large public schools) with a team title for them and one for small school division. That would be good to have, heck i was just looking and a school called Oakhaven was a RU to East Ridge in 1991, never even heard of the school before.

When I wrestled at Soddy one or 2 of our assistant coaches were also football coaches. Same thing with our middle schools. We usually had a decent turnout of guys from both sports, some that even went to college for football decided to wrestle when they had not before because some smaller school college coaches LOVED the football players that also wrestled. That stat above is pretty eye-opening with 180 schools that competed in regionals and only 31 having the full 14 weights filled. Sad situation all around

Oaklands 2nd string could win State!! Stop!!!

I have a strange thought….. shouldn’t we wait till they’re sort of a Goliath, before we declare them a Goliath. Not that they can’t be.

Having a football coach on your wrestling staff is a tremendous asset. I would say Oakland is a great example of that. I haven't researched this, but off the top of my head I believe they've had full teams (or close to it) in the recent past.

This statistic alone tells me that we have very few coaches that are sharing athletes. There is absolutely no reason that high school kids should not be multi-sport athletes. When the football coach and wrestling coach work together both sports benefit from that relationship.

I'm just waiting to see how they handle to Gallaton situation.... Isn't the rule to vacate the previous residence completely?

Hey no problem nobody seems to want to talk about Derek Rang or Oak Ridge anyway! lol WILDCAT PRIDE

Assistant coach named head coach.

Bump

I think your best data point its the game comparison and it's a good one. thanks for that. I think you guys have changed my mind that it would have been a great match. another honest question - do you think they are the best 2 teams regardless of classification? most other rankings had 1-3 D2 schools above both of them. i will continue to point out that sonny moore does not count any out of state game AND considers the previous years so LA is missing 6 games in 2 years. oakland is missing 2. so it's worse than our opinion, IMHO. : ) from sonny moore... "The ratings are compiled by using only statistical and historical data. The most recent games played are more meaningful in compiling the ratings. Only games played against the teams in the ratings are used to formulate the power ratings."

No real answer.......but, Sonny Moore's computer generated poll.......probably no better than our opinion...but, his last poll from last season (2022)...... #1 & #2 all teams regardless of classification. Then look at common opponents. Maryville lost to West 18-31 (With Maryville's best player in the game) Mayville lost to Oakland 15-38 (Without Maryville's best player in the game)

That's 3 tough ones, and two they should win, but I should have put theirs in my previous post. If Morristown and Oak Ridge are elite competition, than Bearden won't be as good as I thought they'd be.

That same 7-5 Bearden team had losses to the 5a and 4a State Champs, Maryville twice, and Farragut their rival by a TD. Farragut beat Beech the 6a runner up who beat both Cane ridge and Smyrna so that 7-5 Bearden team wasn't a typical 7-5 team when you look at their losses. I think any body that saw that Knox West team play in person last year would agree that Oakland VS West would have been a good game going down to the wire. West had athletes all over the field and return quite a bit on D from that team this year. I know Smyrna lost Carter, Cane Ridge always will have athletes so don't know who they have returning, and Blackman lost a lot of starters in the skill positions spots and have a new coach. Bearden under Jones has kids transferring in every day ( Gallatin's 3 star RB to name one), West returns quite a bit on D, Maryville always has a top 5 6a team, ands Greeneville returns over half their starters on both O and D. I agree I like seeing East vs Middle during the regular season. It helps gage better across the state that way, not until the semi's and finals

"But don't sit down here and try to tell me that because you have worked the state tournament since it came to Murfreesboro, and you spectate from your awesome seat, that you know what is best for us. " - XBOX "And for some reason you think because you force a "series" and added games on already stressed pitching (because they have to catch, play shortstop, etc.) is going to dramatically increase play and avoid "slugfests" at the state tournament?" - XBOX Old Format after District Tournament: Monday, Wednesday, Friday - Spring Fling Throw 1,2,1 New Format Friday 1vs2 and 2vs1 #1 vs #1 pitchers Saturday L1 vs L2 #2 vs #2 pitchers W1 vs W2 #2 vs #2 pitchers - Winner hosts Substate WG3 vs LG4 #3 vs #3 pitchers - Winner travels to Substate Only difference is #2s are in have-to-win games instead of a game that decides coke sales or buying gas for Friday. #3s come into play if needed. Substate - 2 out of 3. #3 may not be needed? So one more starting pitcher needed if you lose a game either weekend. And what this DOES solve is teams that have one (1) good pitcher that in the old days won on Monday and Friday with that one pitcher and then get to the Boro and run out of pitching. How do I know that? I have seen it in action in 1A baseball since 2006. Since Spring Fling Came to Murfreesboro - Some 1A scores 2006: https://tssaasports.com/event/bracket.cfm?id=20050401 10-0 16-6 17-7 12-2 12-0 2007: https://tssaasports.com/event/bracket.cfm?id=20060401 11-0 14-3 11-1 10-0 11-1 19-1 12-3 15-1 26-0 13-2 19-6 13-3 2008: https://tssaasports.com/event/bracket.cfm?id=20070401 9-0 11-2 16-10 15-8 10-4 2009: https://tssaasports.com/event/bracket.cfm?id=20080401 17-1 13-3 10-2 12-7 11-0 14-3 13-2 20-1 15-6 13-8 18-4 2010: https://tssaasports.com/event/bracket.cfm?id=20090401 16-3 13-0 16-6 10-0 2011: https://tssaasports.com/event/bracket.cfm?id=20100401 12-2 11-8 12-3 16-6 15-2 9-0 12-6 23-4 2012: https://tssaasports.com/event/bracket.cfm?id=20110401 11-3 11-1 10-3 13-3 11-3 8-1 2013: https://tssaasports.com/event/bracket.cfm?id=20120401 18-2 13-5 12-9 18-1 12-1 2014: https://tssaasports.com/event/bracket.cfm?id=20130401 11-1 13-5 2015: https://tssaasports.com/event/bracket.cfm?id=20140401 11-2 11-0 16-4 2016: https://tssaasports.com/event/bracket.cfm?id=20150401 11-1 11-2 13-5 12-7 2017: https://tssaasports.com/event/bracket.cfm?id=20160401 16-1 11-6 10-2 11-1 2018: https://tssaasports.com/event/bracket.cfm?id=20170401 13-1 16-0 10-2 13-1 2019: https://tssaasports.com/event/bracket.cfm?id=20180401 10-2 10-1 12-8 13-6 No 2020 2021: https://tssaasports.com/event/bracket.cfm?id=20200401 10-0 10-0 11-1 15-5 2022: https://tssaasports.com/event/bracket.cfm?id=20210401 11-0 13-0 10-1 11-1 A team will need 3 good starting pitchers instead of depending on 1 great pitcher, People that argue for the old way tend to be the ones that just want to get to the state instead of the ones wanting to win a state title. Baseball is a true TEAM sport. Pitching is what makes it different from softball or football that have 1 pitcher or 1 quarterback.

I appreciate the thoughtful response and have no argument. except about west VS oakland. : )