BA vs. Ensworth

[big red big blue]

Ricky Bowers has had great players flock to him wherever he has gone.

 

All the MBA posters that proclaim that the Big Red only won in the Bowers years due to having physically overmatched, but really smart and better-coached teams make me chuckle.

 

Give me a break!

 

Even in the years when he was a BA assistant the Eagles had the best talent they have ever had.

 

As long as he is the head coach at Ensworth, they will be very competitive. The "Ensworth effect" is beginning to really have an impact on both BA and MBA athletically...especially MBA. The Big Red supporters can deny it all they want, but in their gut, they know it is real. Most of those players you see on the Ensworth team today would have been on MBA's team 4-5 years ago. Maybe a couple would have played for BA also.

 

Good for Ensworth. They are really building a quality program there.

 

Ricky did great things, unprecedented things, with marginal talent at MBA (e.g., the '94 bball team, the '94-'96 football teams). He took it to another level and won titles with exceptional talent, though the most noteworthy players on those teams from '99-'01 were coming to MBA whoever the coach was (i.e., Barton Simmons, Ingle Martin, Hunter Hillenmeyer)...so I'm not sure if I'd say the reason he won at MBA was purely because talent flocked to him, though to be sure it did once he was off and running, and to be sure he wanted more of it....It's interesting here that the talent flocked to him before he had a record at all at a school that's not even 10 years old. I had no doubt the talent would flock to him eventually, after he overachieved a couple of times with a crop of EMS kids.

 

I remember reading something from a trader on Wall St. who said, "making lots of money here is easy, if all you care about is making money." Winning at football like this is also easy, if all you care about is winning at football.

[itzme]

Of course they are coming from the same places...there just aren't as many of them, nor are they the quality that MBA used to get. It's simple math. When another top program is added in an area, it dilutes the talent. In addition, although most of your teammates came from those schools, a few of the best players did not, and those types of players make a ton of difference.

 

We'll see how it shakes out. The evidence is on my side of the argument so far.

The game last year was very close...MBA came back from probably the worst start to a game the school's ever had. Suppose they'd held the lead and won, thus had a 2-1 record againt Ensworth (same record Ensworth has now). Would you use that limited evidence to argue that Ensworth was having no effect at all on the MBA program, given that on the same basis you're saying that Ensworth is having a devatstaing effect on MBA?

 

Certainly Ensworth is getting some kids who would have gone to MBA. But MBA is also getting more kids from less traditional places as well. They're having no trouble filling classes with very well qualified young men. Nashville is bigger than it was in the '70's, and a greater percentage of parents are sending kids to private schools. We'll be ok.

 

Please point out where I stated that "Ensworth is having a devastating effect on MBA"? Your old MBA debate team coach would not look favorably on such obvious rhetorical overkill.

 

What I stated was that Ensworth is beginning to have an impact on both MBA and BA athletically. It's also having an impact on Harpeth Hall and BA in girl's athletics. Clearly all of these programs will "be OK", but the impact is there.

 

Just for the record, I have nothing but the greatest respect for Coach Bowers as a coach. He is incredible...Probably the best coach I have ever seen at the high school level. I think you also know that I have great respect for both MBA and Ensworth as schools. Both add a lot to the Nashville community.

[itzme]

 

I remember reading something from a trader on Wall St. who said, "making lots of money here is easy, if all you care about is making money." Winning at football like this is also easy, if all you care about is winning at football.

 

Are you implying that Ensworth's sole goal is to win at football? I don't think that any of us that are DII fans should stoop to that level of discourse.

[big red big blue]

 

I remember reading something from a trader on Wall St. who said, "making lots of money here is easy, if all you care about is making money." Winning at football like this is also easy, if all you care about is winning at football.

 

Are you implying that Ensworth's sole goal is to win at football? I don't think that any of us that are DII fans should stoop to that level of discourse.

 

It requires a little more subtle interpretation than that...I think most here are capable of that, you included. But, to answer, no, I don't think all EHS cares about is winning at football.

[rollredroll]

Just for the record, I have nothing but the greatest respect for Coach Bowers as a coach. He is incredible...Probably the best coach I have ever seen at the high school level.

 

Bite yo' tongue. We all know the best coach in the state is the one affectionately known as a 2-letter acronym, which is also the acronym of a particular men's magazine. You need to hang out on the site more often and get force-fed this unequivocal coaching information.

[wrangler615]

Ricky Bowers has had great players flock to him wherever he has gone.

 

All the MBA posters that proclaim that the Big Red only won in the Bowers years due to having physically overmatched, but really smart and better-coached teams make me chuckle.

 

Give me a break!

 

Even in the years when he was a BA assistant the Eagles had the best talent they have ever had.

 

As long as he is the head coach at Ensworth, they will be very competitive. The "Ensworth effect" is beginning to really have an impact on both BA and MBA athletically...especially MBA. The Big Red supporters can deny it all they want, but in their gut, they know it is real. Most of those players you see on the Ensworth team today would have been on MBA's team 4-5 years ago. Maybe a couple would have played for BA also.

 

Good for Ensworth. They are really building a quality program there.

 

Ricky did great things, unprecedented things, with marginal talent at MBA (e.g., the '94 bball team, the '94-'96 football teams). He took it to another level and won titles with exceptional talent, though the most noteworthy players on those teams from '99-'01 were coming to MBA whoever the coach was (i.e., Barton Simmons, Ingle Martin, Hunter Hillenmeyer)...so I'm not sure if I'd say the reason he won at MBA was purely because talent flocked to him, though to be sure it did once he was off and running, and to be sure he wanted more of it....It's interesting here that the talent flocked to him before he had a record at all at a school that's not even 10 years old. I had no doubt the talent would flock to him eventually, after he overachieved a couple of times with a crop of EMS kids.

 

I remember reading something from a trader on Wall St. who said, "making lots of money here is easy, if all you care about is making money." Winning at football like this is also easy, if all you care about is winning at football.

 

I don't see the problem with talent flocking someone from "out of town". EMS has less 8th graders than EHS has spots in 9th grade and on top of that a lot of the 8th graders don't go to EHS. The point of having a PRIVATE High School is to allow people from anywhere to get an education and exploit other opportunities like athletics and arts that they wouldn't be able to get with their public school system. Also there are very few big private schools outside Nashville (aside from Memphis and Chattanooga)for the kids from Dickson and Murfeesboro and so on to attend. Therefore the best talent in a hour or more radius is drawn to Nashville Private schools like MBA, EHS, and BA.

 

Yes, sometimes there is a questionable call on a couple athletes, but the bottom line is the athlete is given a good academic education and good athletic education and in most private schools there are a few people who work on getting these student-athletes to the next level whether for academics or athletics. For most of these kids it is an opened door to a better life, and it would be irresponsible as human beings to deny kids this opportunity to turn their lives around and boost them to the next level. Even for those players who get "recruited" and "wasted/used" by their coaches still receive a decent or better education and they attend college 99% of the time.

 

Lastly, if I were a top notch athlete and I lived in a rural area with a small and unknown football team, I would be on these boards and on the school websites searching for a place to go. For many people this is their only way to college and it shouldn't go to waste because they are trapped by geography and their parents jobs and income levels.

 

I know that not all athletes come from this background but I am speaking for the majority which do.

[KWoodroof]

Please point out where I stated that "Ensworth is having a devastating effect on MBA"? Your old MBA debate team coach would not look favorably on such obvious rhetorical overkill.

 

What I stated was that Ensworth is beginning to have an impact on both MBA and BA athletically. It's also having an impact on Harpeth Hall and BA in girl's athletics. Clearly all of these programs will "be OK", but the impact is there.

 

Just for the record, I have nothing but the greatest respect for Coach Bowers as a coach. He is incredible...Probably the best coach I have ever seen at the high school level. I think you also know that I have great respect for both MBA and Ensworth as schools. Both add a lot to the Nashville community.

Sorry, I was thinking you had previously made a comment using the word "devastating." My error.

 

The debate coach at MBA wouldn't have known me. Not an activity that ever interested me even slightly. In a facility where everybody was inteliigent, that crowd was disturbingly smart. I would have been well out of my depth over there.

[Redtwin]

Of course they are coming from the same places...there just aren't as many of them, nor are they the quality that MBA used to get. It's simple math. When another top program is added in an area, it dilutes the talent. In addition, although most of your teammates came from those schools, a few of the best players did not, and those types of players make a ton of difference.

 

We'll see how it shakes out. The evidence is on my side of the argument so far.

 

Wrong again. The number of boys that MBA gets from the traditional feeder schools I mentioned earlier has remained very level since the creation of EHS. There has been a small drop off from EMS, but it has not been as significant as many would have thought. Look at the most significant contributors for EHS this year and tell me which ones came from one of the schools I mentioned. Rodney Anderson is about the only one I see, and he's been at Ensworth his entire career. This is not a jab at EHS, nor is there any problem with it. It merely supports what I'm saying. Also, the most significant players on the most successful teams came from those schools. Hunter Hillenmeyer, Ingle Martin, Dominique Morris, Tom Santi, David McIntosh, Barton Simmons, Tate Rich, Cole Barfield, Reid Murphy, etc. all come from those schools. Moses went to Eakin, a public magnet school about five minutes from MBA.

 

Again, the problem, if you can call it that, is not a lack of talent. Inuries have been devastating for the last two years. If you go back and look at Ricky's teams, especially the ones with which he won multiple titles, they largely avoided serious injuries. I can only think of two season ending injuries from 1998-2000. Also, Ricky is a great coach, as are Caudill, Hiett, and Redmond, but Rutledge and McGugin had no trouble winning titles when Floyd Elliott was around. He was the glue. MBA's D has had some growing pains this year, but Coach Rodriguez is talented, and his team has shown some bright spots along the way.

 

To someone else's point. Vandy is insane if they don't jump all over Orleans. He is a player, and he reminds me of Moses. All the big time college coaches said he was an inch short and a step slow, but it didn't stop him from leading the SEC in tackles. He was football fast and had a nose for the ball, and I think Orleans is the same way. Vandy should try and get him, as well as Fitz Lassing, another Oak Hill boy.

[Bighurt]

Itzme posted - "What I stated was that Ensworth is beginning to have an impact on both MBA and BA athletically. It's also having an impact on Harpeth Hall and BA in girl's athletics. Clearly all of these programs will "be OK", but the impact is there."

 

Exactly! Those programs will be impacted. Will they still be successful? Very likely they will. Why is it so difficult for particularly MBA supporters to admit that other programs even exist.

 

And you wonder why people find you overbearing and pompous.

[bostie]

redtwin:

"EMS has less 8th graders than EHS has spots in 9th grade and on top of that a lot of the 8th graders don't go to EHS."

Your statement is half correct: if all the EMS kids went to EHS, half of each class would come from outside EMS. Since EHS opened, an average of 85 percent or more of each EMS class has gone on to EHS, with the other 15 percent having chosen boarding schools, MBA, Harpeth Hall, St. Cecelia, USN, Hume Fogg and others.

Also, off the top of my head, 09 EHS Football players Reeve, Cooper, McDermott, Fentress, Crenshaw, Campbell, Beaird, Tollison, Reuther, Anderson, Bowers, Dingess, Sacks and others attended EMS.

[Redtwin]

Bostie,

 

I think you've got someone else's quotes mistaken for one of mine. At least I don't remember typing that. Either way, you're right about your percentage. We've discussed this before on another thread, and again I may have misspoken here. I'm not sure why, but when I say EMS, I'm thinking more 6th grade than 8th. Probably just because I'm involved in 6th grade athletics. Prior to EHS MBA got most of its boys from Ensworth in 9th grade with a few coming after 6th grade. Since EHS, there has been a drastic shift to where MBA now gets most of its boys from Ensworth after 6th grade with a few coming in 9th grade. Like I said, MBA doesn't get the same amount it used to, but it's not much less either. It's been relatively consistent. I wasn't aware that Cooper and McFadden went to EMS, but I'm certainly not the authority on the subject. Out of curiousity do you know how many of the boys you listed attended Ensworth in the 6th grade?

 

Bighurt, I think most MBA supporters would admit that EHS was getting some boys that might usually go to MBA, but the numbers show that MBA has held up pretty well. You might consider that pompous, but some MBA people might consider it pretentious that some EHS supporters don't understand that the world is not crumbling to pieces over on Harding Rd. either.

 

Either way, this conversation can be civil without a need for name calling. I try not to get involved in this perpetual discussion about MBA and EHS and attendance, but my point that the lack of quality players or lack of players from traditional feeder schools is not the primary reason for MBA having a down year this year is a valid one.

[rollredroll]

 

Why is it so difficult for particularly MBA supporters to admit that other programs even exist.

 

And you wonder why people find on overbearing and pompous.

 

I'd like to think we're only fractionally as overbearing and pompous as we were five years ago, for, in acknowledging the existence of other programs, we'd probably have to concede that, in addition to a few athletes, we've probably lost out on a few snobs as well who would have attended MBA otherwise.