Open zones, Privates, and Public Schools

[snoball5278]

you are the one who brought up the book...so how would you react if the team you supports became open-zoned or heck, just pulled a SM and pawned off a recruit as a "hardship"...or just lied on the paperwork about change of residence like most of them do? Would you find it so repulsive if it helped your team? (a) It happens most everywhere every day. There way more schools scamming the system and getting ahead than there are those "exploiting a loophole". (b )I took advantage of the opportunities open enrollment offered my daughter and I was glad to be able to get her in the only school in Greene County at the time that had a music program and AP classes. The GHS band places more kids in college on scholarship than all the sports programs in Greene County combined and Greeneville still ranks among the highest in the state in AP scores. I have never had a child in athletics at Greeneville. That is the case of most of the tuition students in the city school system. I have friends who sent their kids to city elementary schools because it was more convenient than the county school they were zoned for. There are kids who live a mile from Greeneville elementary schools who are zoned for county schools are a 45 minute bus ride away.The reasons for tuition enrollment are not as nefarious as you make them out to be. These teams are not better because they have a few out of zone students, but because they have a committment to excellence and the resources to acheive it.

i would be repulsed, because we've never done any of that. what i wouldn't do is get on here and try to white wash it.

 

i'm only responding to that first question, because everything after it i've already addressed,

i.e. (a) "everyone's doing it" excuse

 

( b)your experience has nothing to do with this topic as pertained to athletics, which this board and discussion is about, is that really that hard to grasp?

 

on second thought, i will also respond to the last sentence, greeneville is nothing any more spectacular than many programs when it comes to a commitment to excellence, they do however have a loophole policy that allows them access to better rescources than many other schools they compete with.

Edited December 6, 2011 by snoball5278

[ROLLTIDEDevil]

Last time I checked snoball's team had far more State Championships than yours so his school isn't looking for excuses. And his school doesn't win using open enrollment.

 

So you're saying you have over 900 OOZ students in the high school? I will say again all you Greeneville posters are the same. If your open enrollment isn't a big deal why do you guys lie about the numbers?

Thank you for remphasizing that you know nothing about the Greeneville City School System. Your administrators defitnitly need to look inward. Oh wait! The TSSAA already has. How did that turn out?

[snoball5278]

Where is the advantage? It is easy to sit out in cyberspace and criticize a school system that you know nothing about. 99% of the tuition paying students at GHS are students not participating in athletics. The ones that are athletes have been in the school system since grade school. Do we have some secret pyschic ability that allows us to look into the future and determine who is going to be a great athlete. No we do not. What we do have is a system of outstanding teachers and coaches that develops these kids into winners both on the field and in the class room. A loser finds excuses for their failures in what someone else is doing. A winner looks inward and changes what they are doing.

 

if greeneville has ever played a single kid that was an ooz player then they have an advantage over everyone that hasn't. not an excuse just a fact. fwiw, flowtide, i personally have as many rings as anyone who's ever played at greeneville. and got them playing for a program that doesn't have an ooz policy.

 

and your last senetence is spot on, so quit looking for excuses, look inward and accept the fact that an ooz policy is an advantage that many others don't have.

Edited December 6, 2011 by snoball5278

[smeagle1]

I'm starting to Believe you have reading problems. Where did 900 OOZ students number even come up? GHS doesn't even have 900 students in the school. What numbers has any Greeneville poster lied about? Sorry we are informed from day one about tuition when your kids attends a Greeneville City School

 

Again my reading is just fine so let me help you. He said "99% of the tuition paying students at GHS are students not participating in athletics" This means for every one OOZ student participating in athletics you have 99 that are not. I know you have at least 9 OOZ students on the football team and I'm sure there are more. So that's where the over 900 comes from.

 

So 99% is a blatant lie.

[CPA4Ever]

You've made some valid points. Most parents want to do what is best for their child, and deciding what school(s) they will attend is a big decision. You only seem to be pointing out why CPA is at a disadvantage and how they are doing everything in a "legal" manner as it relates to TSSAA rules. I have some comments and questions...

 

As far as the TSSAA finding “illegalitiesâ€â€¦

Based on the TSSAA website, there are only 20 people on staff, not including the Board of Control and the Legislative Council. The TSSAA is not the NCAA; they do not have an enforcement department or anything similar. They depend on schools self reporting “illegalities.†I’m not saying CPA is not doing things by the book. I am saying that it is my opinion that there are a lot of illegalities going on in Tennessee football when it comes to TSSAA rules being followed. Some blatantly break rules, and some just bend the rules or find loop holes to get around the intent of the rule(s).

 

Benefits of CPA…

In one post you said, “CPA's success, as a 347 student school in a district with schools over 1,000 and a division with schools over 700, isn't due to recruiting or violating the rules - it is due to a dedication to success, hard work by the kids, and a tradition that stands for excellence.†You just admitted that it is possible for a parent to pick a school based upon what is best for the student’s athletic future; you even gave an example. I just want to hear you admit that part of CPA’s athletic successes are due to being able to accept students from anywhere as long as they pay tuition and meet an academic standard. Dedication and hard work are a part of it, but you have to admit that most private schools are dealt a pretty good hand when it comes to the quality of the student-athletes they are given from year to year.

 

Finally, you ignored one of the poster’s comments about some new CPA players and their dads receiving coaching positions. Is this true? If so, are they paid non-faculty coaches or are they licensed teachers?

First, I have not posted about CPA's disadvantages. i have refuted those who criticized the system even though the multipier is in force which is designed to offset some advantages. I accept the system, but there are those who refuse to believe privates play fair regardless of the system or the truth.

Second, my previous points were that attracting students, athletes or not, is essential to a private school to survive. Only about 30% of CPA HS male students play football or basketball, so obviously athletic ability is not the key to admission, plus probably 80% plus of football and basketball players started at CPA before they became good athletes. Another point was that any advantage they have has been handled with the multiplier. Another point was that privates lose students to privates just like publics do.

Lastly, i did not respond to the dad coaching issue because i do not know. However, this happens in publics as well. Dads who are good coaches want their kids in good programs. Whether they are paid or not, if they contribute to the quality of the school what is wrong with that?

[Swipes]

Again my reading is just fine so let me help you. He said "99% of the tuition paying students at GHS are students not participating in athletics" This means for every one OOZ student participating in athletics you have 99 that are not. I know you have at least 9 OOZ students on the football team and I'm sure there are more. So that's where the over 900 comes from.

 

So 99% is a blatant lie.

So you know for a fact that there are over 9 OOZ students on GHS's football team? Wow you must be the internal auditor for Greeneville High School . I know of 6 Players. What people don't understand that is the OOZ kids have been in the Greeneville City School System since they where in Elementary School. Maybe Hamilton Co needs to go to open enrollement so you will have an advantage like everyone else . No one talks about open-zone schools that are doing bad but ever since Greeneville has went to 3 state championships everyone is crying faul. Open Enrollment is not going to change so deal with it and stop wining about it

[ROLLTIDEDevil]

if greeneville has ever played a single kid that was an ooz player then they have an advantage over everyone that hasn't. not an excuse just a fact. fwiw, flowtide, i personally have as many rings as anyone who's ever played at greeneville. and got them playing for a program that doesn't have an ooz policy.

 

and your last senetence is spot on, so quit looking for excuses, look inward and accept the fact that an ooz policy is an advantage that many others don't have.

Just because you say there is an advantage I am supposed to believe it. Quantify your argument. How much more of a chance does an ooz athlete have of starting. How many points are they more likely to score. Does being an ooz athlete automatically make your 40 time faster or add 50lbs to your bench press. GHS has the same amount of kids come out for football as any other school. The ones that play are the ones that earned their spot. If you are going to make an intelligent argument back it up with facts rather than peacocking about how many rings you have.

[ColumbiaBlueNScarlet]

First, I have not posted about CPA's disadvantages. i have refuted those who criticized the system even though the multipier is in force which is designed to offset some advantages. I accept the system, but there are those who refuse to believe privates play fair regardless of the system or the truth.

Second, my previous points were that attracting students, athletes or not, is essential to a private school to survive. Only about 30% of CPA HS male students play football or basketball, so obviously athletic ability is not the key to admission, plus probably 80% plus of football and basketball players started at CPA before they became good athletes. Another point was that any advantage they have has been handled with the multiplier. Another point was that privates lose students to privates just like publics do.

Lastly, i did not respond to the dad coaching issue because i do not know. However, this happens in publics as well. Dads who are good coaches want their kids in good programs. Whether they are paid or not, if they contribute to the quality of the school what is wrong with that?

 

Just my opinion, but I would guess that 30% would be a high percentage if you ranked all high schools in TN. Also, I never said that athletics is a key to admission at CPA or anywhere. It's good that 80+% came up in the CPA program. Continuity with players and coaching staffs are things that help an athletic program.

 

There's nothing wrong with a non-faculty coach that has a son on the team, but there is a difference between public and private. In Knoxville, Knox County Schools pay non-faculty coaching stipends. I've been told that it's not very much. Private schools have the ability to pay what ever they want to pay. They can even pay an amount that is similar to the amount of tuition required for a student. I'm not accusing anybody of anything. I'm just saying that is a way for a student to receive a scholarship without receiving a scholarship.

[smeagle1]

So you know for a fact that there are over 9 OOZ students on GHS's football team? Wow you must be the internal auditor for Greeneville High School . I know of 6 Players. What people don't understand that is the OOZ kids have been in the Greeneville City School System since they where in Elementary School. Maybe Hamilton Co needs to go to open enrollement so you will have an advantage like everyone else . No one talks about open-zone schools that are doing bad but ever since Greeneville has went to 3 state championships everyone is crying faul. Open Enrollment is not going to change so deal with it and stop wining about it

 

 

It isn't about Greeneville. People were complaining about Alcoa and Maryville long before you were a factor. You all use a loophole in the system to gain an advantage. Just because it's legal doesn't mean we have to like it. And at the end of the day I really don't care. I just wish you guys would admit it and quit trying to diminish the advantage with lies or half truths.

[ROLLTIDEDevil]

It isn't about Greeneville. People were complaining about Alcoa and Maryville long before you were a factor. You all use a loophole in the system to gain an advantage. Just because it's legal doesn't mean we have to like it. And at the end of the day I really don't care. I just wish you guys would admit it and quit trying to diminish the advantage with lies or half truths.

What advantage has Greeneville gained. The last time I checked the scoreboard starts with two zeros once the game starts. We are not gaming the system. If we were bringing in kids every year just to play sports you would have an argument. Our kids start in grade school and work their way through high school the same way that they do in other school systems.

[CPA4Ever]

Just my opinion, but I would guess that 30% would be a high percentage if you ranked all high schools in TN. Also, I never said that athletics is a key to admission at CPA or anywhere. It's good that 80+% came up in the CPA program. Continuity with players and coaching staffs are things that help an athletic program.

 

There's nothing wrong with a non-faculty coach that has a son on the team, but there is a difference between public and private. In Knoxville, Knox County Schools pay non-faculty coaching stipends. I've been told that it's not very much. Private schools have the ability to pay what ever they want to pay. They can even pay an amount that is similar to the amount of tuition required for a student. I'm not accusing anybody of anything. I'm just saying that is a way for a student to receive a scholarship without receiving a scholarship.

I appreciate your reasonable discussion, and you make good points; however, keep in mind, the smaller the school, the larger % of students have to play football or you won't field a team. For example, CPA had 12 seniors this year on the FB team out of about 45 male seniors. if CPA doesn't have a high %, they don't have enough players to play. Maplewood, on the other hand, has their pick of the best 50-60 players from over 500 male students, so naturally they have a smaller %. If they had 30%, they would have 150 players and couldn't dress them out. Smith Co. has about 340 males students and at least 80 players (about 25%) and they have at least 10 coaches. That doesn't bother me. I think it is good for the kids.

As far as the parent coaches, I do not know the financial arrangement but I'm sure they are all different, and i also know the school has to answer to the church board financially, who would stop any unjustified expenditures. If a parent is a coach, is working hard, and doing a good job, they deserve to be paid like anyone else. i know for a fact some of them coach for free. For a few years, Mark Miller of Sawyer brown coached the middle school team his son was on for free. Again, I cannot testify to perfection in intent or action, but i can state one thing for sure: the potential for problems is not exclusive to the privates.

[snoball5278]

Just because you say there is an advantage I am supposed to believe it. Quantify your argument. How much more of a chance does an ooz athlete have of starting. How many points are they more likely to score. Does being an ooz athlete automatically make your 40 time faster or add 50lbs to your bench press. GHS has the same amount of kids come out for football as any other school. The ones that play are the ones that earned their spot. If you are going to make an intelligent argument back it up with facts rather than peacocking about how many rings you have.

 

you're being obtuse, flowtide. the ooz policy allows them to have access to an area larger than what they are officailly zoned for, non ooz schools can only draw there athletes from where they are zoned for. greeneville can circumvent that rule. i only referenced my accolades to deflect your trite comment as to what consitutes a winner or loser, in essence i was only answering your queery. don't be upset that things weren't the way you precieved them. if you can not cognitively understand the obviousness of that advantage then you are beyond my help, no matter how intelligently i word it.

Edited December 6, 2011 by snoball5278